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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin

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Willis your host and I have some good

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news and well maybe bad news for at

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least the live listeners and that

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tonight's show is not actually live

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it's a pre-recorded show but I guess the

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good news or there's two parts of the

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good news is myself and perhaps even our

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guests there are two of them maybe in

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the chat room I know that I will be I'm

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not sure about them they possibly might

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be and the best part of the good part of

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the news is that these are one-on-one

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face-to-face interviews in person and

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there's nothing more engaging than that

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in my opinion so these are great

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interviews with these two people the

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first person is dawn Schmidt repeat

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guests known as the Roswell investigator

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he was mentored by J Allen Hynek that's

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mostly where we're going to be talking

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about it's a heartfelt interview and by

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far the best talk I've ever had with Don

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Schmidt so I'm really I really think

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you'll enjoy that a lot

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the second part of the show is with

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someone I met out here I've never heard

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of talked before and she's wonderful and

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her name is Alice druffle her mother is

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the noted ufologists and ruffle and

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everybody knows and ruffle and ufology

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out this way I had never heard of her

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but boy was she so well known and what a

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childhood Alice had with her five

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siblings she's gonna be talking about

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that she'll also be talking about her

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mother's a very close friend who passed

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away in 1971 at the young age of 51

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years old and that's James McDonald it's

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a fascinating interview about James

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McDonald and the you know the work he

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did also some photographs are going to

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be talking about and documents and much

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more it's a great show I'm really

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excited about

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I think you'll love it and so as far as

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the people that support the show I want

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to thank you so much we could definitely

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not do this show without you anyone can

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support the show even here on YouTube

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all you have to do is go to podcast UFO

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comm and you can help us out for two

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dollars or more a month that would be

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greatly appreciated and so that's it for

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me we are starting out right now with

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the one and only Don Schmidt Don Schmidt

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welcome to the show once again Thank You

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Martin thanks for having me yeah and

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it's always fun as we were just

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mentioning a little while ago I think

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you were one of the first people that

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had on my show like number four or

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something like that out of 280 whatever

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289 and so you finally are getting it

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right so well trying as some of the

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people know I've had a few technical

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difficulties while going live so I just

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haven't been able to I think the last

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time I was on with you you your dog was

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having difficulty and yeah you lost your

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dog yeah we lost his soul yeah yes and I

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got a really nice note from you and I I

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do remember that thank you well thank

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you yeah yeah yeah

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so you're here at the Congress to

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actually talk about J Allen Hynek this I

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think is fascinating now and you knew

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him pretty well yes I did and I miss him

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I miss him in the sense that not only

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was he my mentor but he became not only

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a good friend but he he became a bit of

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a father figure in a field that there

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are a lot of loners there are a lot of

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people that just march to whatever drum

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they decide and for me it created a

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level a discipline in that there were

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certain parameters that we needed to

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abide by and as a result I saw a level

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of a bravery in him for not only still

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trying

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always remain the consummate scientist

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but willing to buck as far as the tide

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of a public opinion and as a result I

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saw that he he very often isolated

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himself and it was all the more reason

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that he then he confided to us we became

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in many ways his secondary family in

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that regard his wife Mimi during that

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time she was the only one within his own

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family he had his own children but they

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weren't into the topic at all and and

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and Mimi even after Alan passed away she

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still you know she came back to our

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board of directors we were so pleased

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that we we quickly renamed the Center

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for UFO studies in his honor and of the

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state the jail and ionic Center for UFO

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studies and she accompanied us on our

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first archeological dig to the Roswell

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debris field Wow and she she commented a

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number of times Alan would be so proud

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of you boys and and I think a lot of

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that had to do with the fact that he

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schooled a whole number of us to carry

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on to follow in in footsteps that here

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was the true father of modern day

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ufology and even as he happened to be at

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the right place the right time having

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you know being the astronomer physicist

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at Ohio State just down the road from

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wright-patterson Air Force Base and as

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project sign and then grudge and then

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the most famous Blue Book was

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established that he wasn't even head of

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the department at that time but he was

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the only one who agreed that well I'll

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come on I'll become your scientific

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consultant and he became their chief

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debunker so to speak he was the one who

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always went before the press and

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explained away whatever incident

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whatever case you know had come to their

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attention at the time do you happen to

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know

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what his thoughts were prior to when he

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actually changed his thoughts but I mean

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early on

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did he just think it was total bunk

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himself absolutely he thought and he

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often suggested that he felt that this

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was nothing more than a part of the

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silly season as he would call it that

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that first major wave of the summer of

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1947 that it was the lazy hazy days of

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summer and that people just for want of

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something to do that this was going to

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be a passing phase and that would be the

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end of it and then especially as the

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phenomenon the reports escalated and

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then even after the you know you know

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tacit dismissal at Roswell and the

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reports were squelched the reports died

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but nonetheless the sightings continued

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and then with that that big wave in 1952

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and he already had been called on a

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system of project grudge and then

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working with the first director of Blue

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Book Captain Edward ruppelt and he saw

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that you know that they could really

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make some substantial effort into

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demonstrating that there was a true

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phenomenon yet he still remained quite

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the the skeptic so wasn't this was a

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gradual change and long before my

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involvement I mean I wasn't involved

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with with what dr. Hynek until 1978 in

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the last you know eight years of his

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life but nonetheless in becoming a

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student and listening to him

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describe to us how he would very often

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interview pilots both commercial and

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civilian and military and he would

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listen to some of the most profound

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descriptions you know of Close

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Encounters aircraft you know area

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objects that clearly were not of our

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technology back in the 50s and 60s and

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then week after week or month after

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month going from Illinois from Chicago

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Evanston more specifically down to

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Dayton Ohio

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wright-patterson Air Force Base and

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sifting through all the current reports

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and where's this case where's that case

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I spoke to that sac officer where is

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that and they'd act like they didn't

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know what I was talking about and he

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said I saw very early on that they were

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censoring the reports and I was getting

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just a mundane I was looking through you

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know expecting to see a follow up on

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these cases and they were nowhere to be

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found

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so he says I realized that all the

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hardcore cases as he would put it were

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going upstairs we're going elsewhere

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where that was he had no idea he had no

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idea because he was of the impression

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Blue Book was that it was the official

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investigation and then more and more he

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realized that all of these people can't

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be lying we're talking about PhDs were

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talking about trained professional

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people that are describing you know the

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same characteristics the same you know

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flight characteristics that defy

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conventional explanation and then the

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case in Socorro in April of 64 which he

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immediately you know concluded was a

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physical was a vehicle something

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actually physically touched down and

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left those you know depressions in the

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ground and the charred you know the

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sagebrush is still at the scene so

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Garcia and in Dexter Ann Arbor Michigan

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and he got in trouble there with the the

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swamp gas explanation but as he

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emphasized to it to us but that was only

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one sighting at that time and it

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happened to be a farmer over a marsh

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which could very well have been marsh

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gas swamp gas

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but he got labeled I mean and then

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congressman Gerald Ford at the time and

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I'm getting into a lot of things I'm

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gonna be covering in my talk but but

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nonetheless it demonstrated not only the

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human side of what science should be but

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the fact that it's a classic line in the

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day the earth

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stood still with the professor Barnhardt

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who plays almost like the Einstein

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scientists in the movie and he's asked

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you had an economist made you have faith

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dr. Barnhart any response it's not faith

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it's curiosity that makes good science

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and I was dr. J Allen Hynek and was at

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one of the things that he always

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emphasized to us and that was never lose

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that little boy wonderment that every

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time you look up at the stars let your

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imagination just you know go wild and I

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love that about him and that's why it's

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when I said I still miss him because

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we're rudderless within the ufology

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presently everybody is allowed to just

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speak out and say whatever they want to

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and believe whatever they want to and

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there isn't that governing force any

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longer that and maybe it's there and I'm

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just not seeing it but with Hynek and

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especially for the fact that he went

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from just total abject debunker ii to

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the point that and the last time I

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actually sat down with him and he went

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done and he pounded his fist he went on

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its smacking more and more of nuts and

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bolts and for an astronomer especially

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you know you know you know it's just

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addressing the distances from planet you

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know point A to B and just hollowed as

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another intelligence traverse you know

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as far as Alpha Centauri being 4.3 light

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years osa star system and it's just

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beyond human comprehension and yet he

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was willing let's not pretend that to

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try to deal with that and those are all

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the things I loved about him because he

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was not only that human as a scientist

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but he was also that genuine he was

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still the foremost scientist but in

273
00:13:48,509 --> 00:13:45,440
dealing with something be

274
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:48,519
the human pale beyond our own existence

275
00:13:56,499 --> 00:13:54,079
that he he loved to contemplate what was

276
00:13:58,329 --> 00:13:56,509
out there that just because we don't

277
00:14:01,389 --> 00:13:58,339
understand it doesn't mean it doesn't

278
00:14:04,449 --> 00:14:01,399
exist that's right and you know I mean

279
00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:04,459
the phrase of as far as they can't get

280
00:14:09,579 --> 00:14:06,740
there from here I've heard a few

281
00:14:11,470 --> 00:14:09,589
different people say well obviously they

282
00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:11,480
can you know they can't there's

283
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:13,160
something in physics they have figured

284
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:16,810
out it was a stirred they precisely yeah

285
00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:21,290
with with Allen - with dr. Hynek when he

286
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,480
was you know sitting in the comfort of

287
00:14:29,579 --> 00:14:26,240
it he had his his recliner at home and

288
00:14:32,559 --> 00:14:29,589
he had his box of all his remotes and

289
00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:32,569
you know it was his master controls you

290
00:14:36,129 --> 00:14:34,550
know it was almost like his Kirk having

291
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,139
his control chair you know in the

292
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:38,720
enterprise that type of thing and we'd

293
00:14:42,429 --> 00:14:40,610
all sit around and it was almost like

294
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:42,439
sitting at this at the foot of the

295
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:45,170
master so to speak but then it was

296
00:14:50,379 --> 00:14:48,170
basically speak freely what do you think

297
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:50,389
what do you believe about this case or

298
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,610
that case and I remember at one on one

299
00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:54,800
occasion talking about him there talking

300
00:15:00,189 --> 00:14:56,800
about you know the the Van Allen belt

301
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:00,199
just the possibility that that had to be

302
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:04,130
a planet or something at one time and I

303
00:15:08,139 --> 00:15:06,230
thought that there may have indeed been

304
00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:08,149
another planet between the Earth and

305
00:15:17,769 --> 00:15:13,790
Mars and he would go go on go on well

306
00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:17,779
what if there was indeed intelligent

307
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:20,750
life on Mars at one time and whatever

308
00:15:27,309 --> 00:15:24,740
caused that belt that planet to

309
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:27,319
self-destruct or was it something that

310
00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:31,880
you tore it apart pushed Mars out as far

311
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:34,550
as in a deeper orbit cause you know some

312
00:15:40,299 --> 00:15:37,250
type of catastrophic and some of them

313
00:15:41,619 --> 00:15:40,309
were able to evacuate it wasn't like

314
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:41,629
they were flying to another star system

315
00:15:46,569 --> 00:15:44,000
it was just hopping to the next planet

316
00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:46,579
and they've been here all this time

317
00:15:51,009 --> 00:15:48,920
maybe an underground base's bomb the

318
00:15:52,509 --> 00:15:51,019
ocean what-have-you and they continue to

319
00:15:54,429 --> 00:15:52,519
perpetrate the impression that they're

320
00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:54,439
from out there when in reality they're

321
00:16:00,980 --> 00:15:58,770
from right here and he go I love it

322
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:00,990
I love it so he was really open-minded

323
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:03,570
totally deadly you know I'd like to take

324
00:16:06,829 --> 00:16:05,610
a little bit of a jag here that's kind

325
00:16:09,139 --> 00:16:06,839
of a pun intended

326
00:16:11,329 --> 00:16:09,149
in earlier when you and I were talking

327
00:16:13,460 --> 00:16:11,339
in the lobby you told me your story

328
00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:13,470
about traveling around with Williams

329
00:16:18,199 --> 00:16:16,380
shadow yes yeah and when I say jag

330
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:18,209
you'll understand the pun can you tell

331
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:19,770
that story about when you're in that one

332
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:22,890
theater well first of all and it was

333
00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:24,810
something that even after dr. Hynek

334
00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:28,550
passed away and Mark rod agur who

335
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:31,560
stepped in for us as the deputy director

336
00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:33,810
of Koufos and then we had an election

337
00:16:39,980 --> 00:16:37,140
and then he beat actually became Allen's

338
00:16:43,550 --> 00:16:39,990
successor and we would go to like windy

339
00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:43,560
Khan in Chicago with the thought how do

340
00:16:50,750 --> 00:16:46,649
we break into the ranks of the science

341
00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:50,760
fiction audience and we finally realized

342
00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:53,100
that well it's because we're encroaching

343
00:16:59,120 --> 00:16:55,950
on their territory were essentially

344
00:17:01,550 --> 00:16:59,130
making their fiction into nonfiction and

345
00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:01,560
they were threatened by that and we

346
00:17:10,429 --> 00:17:04,230
broached that and we crossed over that

347
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:10,439
boundary that that almost forbidden you

348
00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:14,100
know area of society that you know was

349
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:18,660
in total resistance to ufology and the

350
00:17:23,030 --> 00:17:20,640
next thing I know I'm approached I'm

351
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:23,040
doing a lecture in Charlotte North

352
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:26,160
Carolina by gentleman Damon Rick's

353
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:33,480
Starnes who was president of starlight

354
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:35,880
international something like that he did

355
00:17:40,669 --> 00:17:38,280
these Trek aramas these Star Trek

356
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,679
conventions and it was done I have an

357
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:42,480
idea have you ever done I don't know

358
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:44,160
I've never done science fiction con we

359
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:47,370
tried but he says I'm interested in

360
00:17:52,540 --> 00:17:49,679
doing these too man he's two-person

361
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:52,550
conventions and the next thing I know

362
00:18:00,650 --> 00:17:56,490
I'm doing - man conventions with Captain

363
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:00,660
Kirk William Shatner and the first time

364
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:02,760
I would meet him was just after they

365
00:18:07,940 --> 00:18:05,490
filmed the second the alternative death

366
00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:07,950
scene of Captain Kirk in Star Trek

367
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:11,340
generations they just filmed it in Death

368
00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:12,480
Valley

369
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:16,950
over in Las Vegas fitting and I'm

370
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,809
invited to step into the back of this

371
00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:20,640
limo and there

372
00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:24,809
Captain Kirk I couldn't help it Kirk not

373
00:18:31,130 --> 00:18:27,929
that I reacted that way but it was just

374
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:31,140
amazing for me yeah and I already had

375
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:33,299
done shows with John de Lancie and

376
00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:36,690
George Takei and Jimmy Doohan and Walter

377
00:18:44,539 --> 00:18:39,150
K me and a few of the others but this

378
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:44,549
was Captain Kirk and we spoke at the

379
00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:49,440
Coliseum in Lubbock and I kind of joked

380
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:52,020
about well I'm sorry you you you had to

381
00:18:57,500 --> 00:18:56,880
die and he kind of you know done they

382
00:19:02,450 --> 00:18:57,510
killed me

383
00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:02,460
how they killed him and we would finish

384
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:04,230
at the Coliseum and we were scheduled to

385
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:07,070
do the San Antonio theatre that evening

386
00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:09,900
so we had to catch a plane from Lubbock

387
00:19:15,380 --> 00:19:13,140
in the ballast and then fly in the San

388
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:15,390
Antonio and even through the Dallas

389
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:19,020
Airport he is carrying this huge leather

390
00:19:24,049 --> 00:19:21,510
garment bag like a saddle over his

391
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:24,059
shoulder and Ric Starnes the producer

392
00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:26,250
and myself we're trying to keep up with

393
00:19:33,409 --> 00:19:29,190
him as we're you know keeping up a fast

394
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:33,419
pace to get to our gate and escalators

395
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:35,280
he's running up the steps and come on

396
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:37,110
boys and everybody he's wearing his

397
00:19:42,169 --> 00:19:39,690
little granny glasses and everybody's

398
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:42,179
pointing because they recognize there's

399
00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:45,840
Captain Kirk so we arrived in San

400
00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:52,020
Antonio and there's a limo waiting for

401
00:19:58,610 --> 00:19:55,740
us and it's for those Shatner and myself

402
00:20:02,840 --> 00:19:58,620
and I'm sitting in the back seat with

403
00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:02,850
Captain Kirk and we pull up to the San

404
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:07,380
Antonio San Antonio theater and the

405
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:10,020
people are lined up on both strips of

406
00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:13,140
the sidewalk and Bill is looking out and

407
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:16,020
he's going look at that Don we got a

408
00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:20,250
sellout and I look out my window and I

409
00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:23,460
look up and there I see on the marquee

410
00:20:30,419 --> 00:20:25,630
of the Alamodome

411
00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:30,429
tonight only the Rolling Stones and I'm

412
00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:36,220
like bill bill and he looks oh no no no

413
00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:40,900
no we're doomed we're doomed and he

414
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:42,340
stayed in the green room he wouldn't

415
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:44,650
come out he was so sure that you know

416
00:20:51,289 --> 00:20:48,370
and finally Rick Stein a producer comes

417
00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:51,299
bursting into the room we got a sellout

418
00:21:00,000 --> 00:20:53,950
2,500 people you know that the thing I

419
00:21:02,909 --> 00:21:00,010
knew what you know so I'm up on stage

420
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:02,919
and typically what we would do is I

421
00:21:07,980 --> 00:21:04,330
would do an hour on Roswell

422
00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:07,990
and he would then do an hour you know he

423
00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:10,360
would tell some wonderful stories you

424
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,400
know behind the scenes you start to

425
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:14,320
stuff and even TJ Hooker and all the

426
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:16,000
questions I like Heather Thomas and that

427
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:18,130
type of thing and are going any details

428
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:21,760
there but I loved it I loved it

429
00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:24,640
but it was just before I Roswell movie

430
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,580
came out so I'm it has some some

431
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:29,440
trailers that I was showing for the

432
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:33,010
upcoming Showtime movie yeah but if

433
00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:35,200
you've ever been up on stage and all the

434
00:21:40,289 --> 00:21:37,030
stage lights you can't see beyond the

435
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:40,299
first-fruit fuel rows yeah by the corner

436
00:21:44,190 --> 00:21:42,610
of my eye I see sitting at the end of

437
00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:44,200
the front row just sitting there

438
00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:45,880
beaming up on me and there's Bill

439
00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:48,940
Shatner you know just smiling like you

440
00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:52,750
know Don you know we did it and later

441
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:55,030
we're backstage and a stagehand comes

442
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,760
running up mr. Shatner where were you we

443
00:22:03,510 --> 00:21:59,760
were looking for you trying to find you

444
00:22:05,549 --> 00:22:03,520
and he goes why I was out audience I was

445
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:05,559
listening to Don he says well you'll

446
00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:07,690
never guess it was backstage line to

447
00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:11,830
meet you well who the mayor no Mick

448
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:15,220
Jagger so well they were trying that

449
00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:17,710
while Shatner was in the front row Mick

450
00:22:22,590 --> 00:22:19,780
jig was pacing back and forth behind the

451
00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:22,600
curtain separating the two of us you

452
00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:25,299
know right behind me so I was sandwiched

453
00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:27,820
between Mick Jagger and Bill Shatner

454
00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:29,630
while I was giving a talk on Roswell

455
00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:32,700
[Laughter]

456
00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:35,620
that's great that's great so I know we

457
00:22:40,510 --> 00:22:36,860
went off of

458
00:22:42,610 --> 00:22:40,520
hiding quite a bit but I wanted to hear

459
00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:42,620
this but Hynek loves celebrity I mean

460
00:22:46,930 --> 00:22:44,420
we're doing Close Encounters and with

461
00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:46,940
Spielberg and eating in law and Richard

462
00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:51,470
Dreyfuss you you might know Martin that

463
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:54,620
originally Spielberg they tried to do

464
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:57,650
the movie without dr. Hynek they thought

465
00:23:01,210 --> 00:22:59,360
without his advice without his

466
00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:01,220
involvement without his advice the fact

467
00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:02,150
he's the one who coined the phrase

468
00:23:07,419 --> 00:23:05,630
precisely it is bull you experience yeah

469
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:07,429
and then I think it was partly because

470
00:23:11,620 --> 00:23:09,290
the legal department said well we may

471
00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:11,630
need to get permission so that's when he

472
00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:14,780
invited Alan on to the set and a good

473
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:17,960
decision it was a good decision but and

474
00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:20,720
then that wonderful cameo at the end um

475
00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:22,760
did you know him during that time no no

476
00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:26,270
it was just before or just before but I

477
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:30,980
did have the opportunity of after he

478
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:33,410
went to the premiere and then we were

479
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:35,090
all back at the residence back in

480
00:23:39,789 --> 00:23:38,510
Evanston Illinois and we were sitting

481
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:39,799
there after dinner that evening and I

482
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:41,450
went so Alan I suppose now Close

483
00:23:48,250 --> 00:23:44,320
Encounters is your favorite UFO movie

484
00:23:51,549 --> 00:23:48,260
any what no it's still The Day the Earth

485
00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:51,559
Stood Still however Ellie and it was it

486
00:23:57,130 --> 00:23:53,270
remained the day their instance now

487
00:24:02,230 --> 00:23:57,140
which is my 1950 1951 Michael Rennie

488
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:02,240
certainly and the Gort the robot so did

489
00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:03,740
he actually see it during when it was

490
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:06,350
out then and he was actually involved in

491
00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:08,750
the UFO topic at the time when that

492
00:24:11,169 --> 00:24:10,220
movie came out it was that after I'm

493
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:11,179
trying to think it would have been

494
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:13,790
shortly thereafter because he was on a

495
00:24:22,330 --> 00:24:16,850
tail and The Grudge which was 51 and

496
00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:22,340
then blue book and 52 52 so but then

497
00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:23,780
remembering that he came in as a

498
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:27,740
complete skeptic so I really I don't

499
00:24:32,110 --> 00:24:29,090
recall that he ever mentioned having

500
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:32,120
seen the film until it actually you know

501
00:24:37,049 --> 00:24:33,710
premiered on television I remember it

502
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:37,059
premiered on NBC Saturday night movies

503
00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:41,360
dared me to death I mean I saw it young

504
00:24:46,060 --> 00:24:44,390
and it scared me to woke up many a night

505
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:46,070
with that robot stepping into the

506
00:24:49,149 --> 00:24:48,290
bedroom doorway and seeing that shield

507
00:24:51,659 --> 00:24:49,159
lift

508
00:24:56,409 --> 00:24:51,669
yeah very very cold that's a remember

509
00:24:58,330 --> 00:24:56,419
now did Hynek actually remember hearing

510
00:25:00,789 --> 00:24:58,340
about the Roswell incident when it

511
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:00,799
happened because that was that just went

512
00:25:04,180 --> 00:25:02,809
away and nobody remembered it being

513
00:25:09,159 --> 00:25:04,190
actually remembered it when it first

514
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:09,169
happened he only became from all

515
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:11,210
indication when I was there when I would

516
00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:14,559
watch and if you remember who the true

517
00:25:19,719 --> 00:25:18,529
father of the crash retrieval and people

518
00:25:22,450 --> 00:25:19,729
would always think it's it's Stan

519
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:22,460
Freedman it actually was the late Len

520
00:25:26,879 --> 00:25:23,210
Stringfield

521
00:25:30,159 --> 00:25:26,889
yeah when he did that talk at the muon

522
00:25:32,979 --> 00:25:30,169
symposium in Dayton what better place

523
00:25:33,639 --> 00:25:32,989
Dayton Ohio and Len at the time lived in

524
00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:33,649
Cincinnati

525
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:36,529
blendin liked to fly so that was one of

526
00:25:40,899 --> 00:25:38,330
the reasons that it attracted him that

527
00:25:44,469 --> 00:25:40,909
he could just drive right over to Dayton

528
00:25:48,159 --> 00:25:44,479
from Cincinnati and I was in July of 78

529
00:25:50,349 --> 00:25:48,169
and so it was the first time that he

530
00:25:53,769 --> 00:25:50,359
presented you know his retrievals of the

531
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:53,779
Third Kind and he got into the whole as

532
00:25:58,180 --> 00:25:56,210
far as you know possibility that there

533
00:26:01,180 --> 00:25:58,190
have been crashes and he was developing

534
00:26:03,849 --> 00:26:01,190
you know this roster of all these

535
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:03,859
sources all these Lee anonymous as it

536
00:26:08,229 --> 00:26:05,690
turns you know as a sadly always

537
00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:08,239
remained that he had all these leads of

538
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,580
all these potential crashes one of them

539
00:26:14,259 --> 00:26:12,559
was Roswell because he was one of the

540
00:26:16,930 --> 00:26:14,269
first people who talked to major Jesse

541
00:26:20,909 --> 00:26:16,940
Marcel the intelligence officer from

542
00:26:24,479 --> 00:26:20,919
Roswell and that was hynek's first

543
00:26:26,889 --> 00:26:24,489
contact with even you know that

544
00:26:29,859 --> 00:26:26,899
possibility that there have been some

545
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:29,869
retrieval cases and Alan spent the

546
00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:32,690
better part of the next few years trying

547
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:35,960
to get lend Stringfield to open his

548
00:26:41,349 --> 00:26:39,679
files and I'll never forget when we had

549
00:26:46,029 --> 00:26:41,359
the Q post conference at the Midland

550
00:26:47,979 --> 00:26:46,039
Hotel in Chicago and Alan dr. Hynek

551
00:26:51,399 --> 00:26:47,989
spent all this time meeting with

552
00:26:54,339 --> 00:26:51,409
Stringfield in his room in his private

553
00:26:56,619 --> 00:26:54,349
room and we waited outside in the

554
00:26:59,379 --> 00:26:56,629
hallway and never forget how Alan walked

555
00:27:00,830 --> 00:26:59,389
out and all he kept saying was I feel so

556
00:27:03,670 --> 00:27:00,840
sorry for you land

557
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:03,680
I feel so sorry because Alan struck out

558
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:07,530
that he couldn't get him to break you

559
00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:10,110
know his promise of confidentiality Wow

560
00:27:17,270 --> 00:27:12,840
he was that honorable that principle a

561
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:17,280
man and he also felt that it it allowed

562
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:21,210
him to remain a magnet that people could

563
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:24,690
then go to him with such confidence they

564
00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:26,310
wasn't going to portray that confidence

565
00:27:36,190 --> 00:27:33,540
and Alan tried and he he failed and and

566
00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:36,200
yet after dr. Hynek passed the weight

567
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:42,750
and if you remember that when Alan went

568
00:27:47,810 --> 00:27:44,370
to see came here to Scottsdale

569
00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:47,820
he retired here because he had been

570
00:27:53,450 --> 00:27:50,190
promised all types of money as far as

571
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:53,460
you know research funding and which

572
00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:56,850
never came to fruition but he left he

573
00:28:01,640 --> 00:27:58,710
still remained scientific director at Q

574
00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:01,650
phones but we felt detached we felt as

575
00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:03,750
though he had even abandoned us to some

576
00:28:09,620 --> 00:28:05,670
degree it was we weren't hearing

577
00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:09,630
anything from the Hynix any longer and

578
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:13,740
he was willed when he would retired from

579
00:28:18,770 --> 00:28:16,050
Northwestern University an old abandoned

580
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:18,780
observatory in truth the Consequences

581
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:22,590
New Mexico of all places Wow so the hope

582
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:26,130
was that he and our chief investigator

583
00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:30,090
at the time who was Alan Hendry and Alan

584
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:32,670
was more of a tech writer a technical

585
00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:35,130
writer who would leave Koufos and he

586
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:36,780
became a tech writer at Hughes Aircraft

587
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:40,410
in Tucson I would even stay with Alan on

588
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:42,690
one occasion you know I you know I had a

589
00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:44,910
speaking engagement in Tucson but he and

590
00:28:49,790 --> 00:28:47,430
his wife Elaine and Elaine was a former

591
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:49,800
student of Alan's and she was the

592
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:52,740
astronomer in their family so it was

593
00:29:01,400 --> 00:28:56,090
Elaine who followed Alan the Scottsdale

594
00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:01,410
after the Hendrie split so the plan was

595
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:05,400
that Alan was going to allah invite her

596
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,170
to rebuild assist him in rebuilding this

597
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:12,720
abandon observatory and she was going to

598
00:29:16,350 --> 00:29:13,450
run it

599
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:16,360
hmm but little did we know that Alan was

600
00:29:23,130 --> 00:29:21,130
also going over to Corona New Mexico so

601
00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:23,140
after he passed away we found all these

602
00:29:29,550 --> 00:29:26,560
handwritten notes he was interviewing

603
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:29,560
the ranchers and the families out in the

604
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:31,690
Corona area where the crash originally

605
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:35,110
took place in 1947 he was following up

606
00:29:41,490 --> 00:29:38,140
on this Wow and at the top this needs to

607
00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:41,500
be followed up on so he was

608
00:29:47,790 --> 00:29:44,590
investigating Roswell we had no idea

609
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:47,800
Wow so so did those notes in your

610
00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:49,930
investigation to those notes help you in

611
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:50,740
any type of way

612
00:29:56,910 --> 00:29:53,770
it's corroborated yep with people that

613
00:29:59,130 --> 00:29:56,920
we then a few years later actually

614
00:30:03,240 --> 00:29:59,140
interview our selves for the first time

615
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:03,250
and it's just I guess the point being if

616
00:30:08,850 --> 00:30:05,890
they impressed Alan well enough they

617
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:08,860
also pressed us and in a similar

618
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:11,380
situation where I went into Roswell as a

619
00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:13,750
complete skeptic the point being that as

620
00:30:21,870 --> 00:30:15,940
Alan went into the subject as a complete

621
00:30:24,510 --> 00:30:21,880
skeptic and we both made the 180 that

622
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:24,520
the evidence yeah that's what he was

623
00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:26,650
also talking about and not losing a

624
00:30:32,610 --> 00:30:28,960
little boy wonderment because Alan hated

625
00:30:35,790 --> 00:30:32,620
to be behind a desk he loved being in

626
00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:35,800
the field we talked about whether was

627
00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:37,540
being hoisted up on their shoulders

628
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:39,430
after the plane landed in Papua New

629
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:42,130
Guinea to investigate oh the file Oh up

630
00:30:51,020 --> 00:30:48,220
on the Fothergill case or as far as Hess

631
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:51,030
Tollan up towards the Arctic Circle and

632
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:53,650
Alan you know trudging through all that

633
00:30:59,490 --> 00:30:55,810
snow I mean he was 70 years old at that

634
00:31:02,370 --> 00:30:59,500
time and knee-deep snow and all he came

635
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:02,380
home with was a bad cold from that

636
00:31:06,090 --> 00:31:04,210
situation I remember driving him around

637
00:31:08,970 --> 00:31:06,100
and Evanston sitting next to me just

638
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:08,980
needing and coffee crazy Wow

639
00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:11,290
I mean feeling so proud that there he

640
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:14,590
was leading the charge Wow let's go back

641
00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:17,290
quickly to the Fothergill case it's such

642
00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:19,960
a fascinating case absolutely what did

643
00:31:25,710 --> 00:31:22,630
he what was his conclusion on that did

644
00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:25,720
he come to some type of conclusion you

645
00:31:31,270 --> 00:31:27,140
have to remember that

646
00:31:33,070 --> 00:31:31,280
didn't investigate the Gil incident as a

647
00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:33,080
consultant to the Air Force it was years

648
00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:35,780
later I see and so and then even when

649
00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:39,950
father Gill came to America and then he

650
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:42,230
stayed he spent time at the hiding

651
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:44,930
residence and Alan you know spent all in

652
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:46,910
additional time with Alan was totally

653
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:48,260
convinced totally impressed with let's

654
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:49,970
uh peas for the person that doesn't know

655
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:52,970
this amazing case with the flashlight or

656
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:55,010
whatever was everything the beings on

657
00:32:01,360 --> 00:31:56,810
top of the craft and waving and all that

658
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:01,370
was it 57 or 58 yeah I know it's it's

659
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:04,370
yeah it's at a time just around Sputnik

660
00:32:12,810 --> 00:32:06,940
but nonetheless it was where two nights

661
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:12,820
as far as a part low hovering craft and

662
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:15,230
the first night where the object just

663
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:18,440
you know we remain stationary hovering

664
00:32:25,450 --> 00:32:22,130
over that that particular mission in

665
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:25,460
Papua New Guinea father William Gill was

666
00:32:31,270 --> 00:32:27,200
the the head of the mission at that time

667
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:31,280
and then the next night almost an

668
00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:34,910
identical situation and this time the

669
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:39,950
the people observed people right as

670
00:32:44,620 --> 00:32:41,810
though they were attending this

671
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:44,630
something almost I got a cat walk on a

672
00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:48,470
platform a flying platform and the

673
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:52,700
natives were waving yeah and much to

674
00:32:59,800 --> 00:32:56,810
their surprise the occupants were waving

675
00:33:02,500 --> 00:32:59,810
back down and if either Gill would go to

676
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:02,510
what they called you know a torch which

677
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,850
was a flashlight yeah anyway and he

678
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:06,320
would flash it and the object would

679
00:33:10,270 --> 00:33:08,810
Teeter you know an emotion up as far as

680
00:33:14,650 --> 00:33:10,280
the flashlight as they would wave it

681
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:14,660
yeah and amazing it was animate purse

682
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:17,210
precisely and especially because these

683
00:33:24,250 --> 00:33:21,230
people were all virgin Tam tainted they

684
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:24,260
had no prior knowledge of the subject

685
00:33:29,170 --> 00:33:26,750
and they described exactly what they saw

686
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:29,180
their sketches were a classic you know

687
00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:32,690
flying saucer I love the the video of

688
00:33:40,989 --> 00:33:37,400
him being interviewed about this and at

689
00:33:42,579 --> 00:33:40,999
the very end he says well it happened

690
00:33:45,219 --> 00:33:42,589
you know whether you can believe me or

691
00:33:46,659 --> 00:33:45,229
not you know and it's okay if you don't

692
00:33:47,529 --> 00:33:46,669
believe me but I know what happened but

693
00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:47,539
I know what happened

694
00:33:52,749 --> 00:33:49,369
right right right don't you love that as

695
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:52,759
far as that I mean everyone it's almost

696
00:34:00,249 --> 00:33:54,289
like there was that it was a Patrick

697
00:34:03,159 --> 00:34:00,259
Moynihan who's a great Democratic as far

698
00:34:05,649 --> 00:34:03,169
as Senator and he would always make the

699
00:34:08,399 --> 00:34:05,659
comment you're you're you're entitled to

700
00:34:11,649 --> 00:34:08,409
your own opinion but not your own facts

701
00:34:13,539 --> 00:34:11,659
and as a result you know yeah you can

702
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:13,549
believe what you want but I know what

703
00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:14,480
happened yeah

704
00:34:18,609 --> 00:34:16,460
well while we're on the subject of facts

705
00:34:23,309 --> 00:34:18,619
I just want to take another little jag

706
00:34:25,539 --> 00:34:23,319
here in that is the the Roswell slide

707
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:25,549
fallout mm-hmm

708
00:34:29,769 --> 00:34:27,710
and we're talking about now how many

709
00:34:33,279 --> 00:34:29,779
years is that like two two years now and

710
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:33,289
it's not may will be three years may

711
00:34:42,819 --> 00:34:37,210
will be three amazing um yeah so how has

712
00:34:45,579 --> 00:34:42,829
that fallout been for you the the

713
00:34:49,269 --> 00:34:45,589
fallout has been another revelation

714
00:34:53,529 --> 00:34:49,279
other education as far as in a life of

715
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:53,539
Don Schmitt in the notion that not being

716
00:35:00,180 --> 00:34:56,650
a scientist and having to rely on

717
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:00,190
professional people in performing due

718
00:35:06,910 --> 00:35:04,450
diligence and at the time working with

719
00:35:10,210 --> 00:35:06,920
anthropologists and threats forensic

720
00:35:13,420 --> 00:35:10,220
experts pathologists who you would

721
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:13,430
expect would no other fields would know

722
00:35:17,279 --> 00:35:14,839
when you show them something

723
00:35:20,049 --> 00:35:17,289
now what this dis looked like to you and

724
00:35:25,539 --> 00:35:20,059
then after being allowed to even study

725
00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:25,549
and do almost short of actually having a

726
00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:28,670
cadaver you know a forensic report on

727
00:35:34,539 --> 00:35:31,940
based on what you see within this figure

728
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:34,549
this image contained within this slide

729
00:35:40,779 --> 00:35:38,240
what is your best professional estimate

730
00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:40,789
or consensus of what we're looking at

731
00:35:46,089 --> 00:35:43,460
here and so what I I learned above

732
00:35:50,220 --> 00:35:46,099
everything else is that even science is

733
00:35:54,990 --> 00:35:50,230
very uh nab salute that even when that

734
00:35:58,210 --> 00:35:55,000
science is not a field of

735
00:35:59,950 --> 00:35:58,220
consensus that you can have a whole

736
00:36:03,520 --> 00:35:59,960
group of people sitting here and it's

737
00:36:07,570 --> 00:36:03,530
because well you believe something to be

738
00:36:10,030 --> 00:36:07,580
factual it's still I believe until

739
00:36:12,580 --> 00:36:10,040
you're able to demonstrate beyond a

740
00:36:14,620 --> 00:36:12,590
shadow of a doubt and so I learned for

741
00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:14,630
example that just with a slide just with

742
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:16,790
a photographic image that no matter it

743
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:18,410
was no matter that Eastman Kodak

744
00:36:23,380 --> 00:36:22,010
determines that it's circa 1947 and that

745
00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:23,390
there are other slides from that

746
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:25,550
collection that all demonstrate that

747
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:27,440
it's from around that time period and

748
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:29,930
then when you looked at the actual body

749
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:32,450
contained as far as within the image and

750
00:36:37,390 --> 00:36:34,970
no matter how many scientists tell you

751
00:36:39,850 --> 00:36:37,400
that it's not human well but when a

752
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:39,860
viable solution comes up and it's

753
00:36:44,050 --> 00:36:41,390
determined to be something very

754
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:44,060
conventional very prosaic obviously you

755
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:47,450
have to accept that and in my case it

756
00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:49,760
was never no one is ever gonna find

757
00:36:54,910 --> 00:36:51,740
where Don Schmidt said that this is an

758
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:54,920
alien body and in fact no one is gonna

759
00:36:58,090 --> 00:36:56,570
find that has recorded you saying that

760
00:36:59,950 --> 00:36:58,100
that yeah

761
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,960
that it was an even but when I said what

762
00:37:03,820 --> 00:37:02,000
I never said that it was yeah and that

763
00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:03,830
no one is ever gonna find that Don had

764
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:05,390
ever said that this had anything to do

765
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:08,510
with Roswell I immediately made that

766
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:10,790
disclaimer that this has nothing to do

767
00:37:17,770 --> 00:37:13,310
at Roswell yeah and I was something that

768
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:17,780
I also you know I harken back to with

769
00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:19,970
dr. Hynek that he always you know he

770
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:22,100
would he would would clarify situation

771
00:37:27,490 --> 00:37:24,170
by saying we're investigating the

772
00:37:30,340 --> 00:37:27,500
properties of a phenomenon and that's

773
00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:30,350
what we were doing and unfortunately I

774
00:37:37,330 --> 00:37:32,540
was surrounded by a number of people

775
00:37:40,180 --> 00:37:37,340
that cried smoking-gun cried Holy Grail

776
00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:40,190
before anything was established and at

777
00:37:45,010 --> 00:37:42,980
the end it came down to Don stand with

778
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:45,020
us on this because we know we're correct

779
00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:47,450
we know it's true yeah and that too was

780
00:37:55,390 --> 00:37:52,460
my mistake yep yeah now is the one

781
00:38:00,190 --> 00:37:55,400
person that was promoting this still

782
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:00,200
claiming that it's alien I think they've

783
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:02,210
moved on I they're looking for the next

784
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:05,330
alien or the next slide so to speak yeah

785
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:07,970
I did question

786
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:15,370
I spoke to a number of Indian tribe

787
00:38:22,330 --> 00:38:19,040
leaders and it's something I asked them

788
00:38:26,290 --> 00:38:22,340
to at least look into that if the body

789
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:26,300
has been desecrated has been disfigured

790
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:31,540
and if indeed an eye is missing which I

791
00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:34,130
think anybody who has even studied as

792
00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:37,160
far as the Old West that it would be the

793
00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:40,190
ultimate desecration of an Indian body

794
00:38:45,810 --> 00:38:42,980
and you shoot the eyes out which would

795
00:38:48,100 --> 00:38:45,820
mean that they would then forever wander

796
00:38:50,260 --> 00:38:48,110
throughout the earth as far as as a

797
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:50,270
spirit never making it to the happy

798
00:38:59,010 --> 00:38:55,930
hunting ground so to speak and if in the

799
00:39:02,920 --> 00:38:59,020
mutilation of that mummy that

800
00:39:07,470 --> 00:39:02,930
two-year-old boy if that was part of the

801
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:07,480
desecration if in if there would be any

802
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:14,480
outcry in displaying it putting it out

803
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:17,470
putting it as far as in a museum if if

804
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:19,610
Indian leaders would have stepped in and

805
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:21,530
said no no no no no you can't do that I

806
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:23,930
mean that's even adding further

807
00:39:29,110 --> 00:39:27,530
desecration to this mummified boy so

808
00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:29,120
that was the last thing I asked the

809
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:32,720
check and not that I deny for a second

810
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:38,050
what it is I just yeah I want to be sure

811
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:43,280
unlike a lot of you know skeptics who

812
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:47,450
just immediately after they find a flaw

813
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:49,280
within the ointment or fly within the

814
00:39:52,540 --> 00:39:52,160
ointment so to speak that all bets are

815
00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:52,550
off

816
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:55,580
end of story I still want to make sure

817
00:40:00,850 --> 00:39:58,850
all the pieces of the puzzle fall into

818
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:00,860
place and not that there's any chance of

819
00:40:05,890 --> 00:40:03,830
you know redemption or resurrection so

820
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:05,900
to speak no I just want to then be able

821
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:10,390
to say yes and we also checked into that

822
00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:14,450
we also looked into that and so the due

823
00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:16,780
process in that regard still continues

824
00:40:22,970 --> 00:40:21,420
really okay now how do you think

825
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:22,980
Hynek would have felt about that whole

826
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:25,170
situation going back to him do you think

827
00:40:30,609 --> 00:40:27,930
that he just would have shook his head

828
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:30,619
and said he didn't follow a certain

829
00:40:35,450 --> 00:40:33,660
protocol or well then I would have said

830
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:35,460
but then Alan we relied on the likes of

831
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:37,650
you we relied on the scientific

832
00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:38,250
community

833
00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:40,950
they're the ones who yeah who failed

834
00:40:47,359 --> 00:40:44,790
yeah yeah and it wasn't and and I don't

835
00:40:48,829 --> 00:40:47,369
deny that I had I worked with a number

836
00:40:52,220 --> 00:40:48,839
of colleagues and keeping in mind that

837
00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:52,230
my own my own partner Thomas J Cary he

838
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:54,270
is an anthropologist he's just his

839
00:41:00,980 --> 00:40:56,730
dissertation away from his PhD in

840
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:00,990
anthropology and it's like well Tom and

841
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,530
the more questions I would ask him yeah

842
00:41:10,089 --> 00:41:06,720
he always came down to what Don do you

843
00:41:14,690 --> 00:41:10,099
trust me and I had to bow out of his

844
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:14,700
experience his profession and so well

845
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:17,040
you know like you said it's a move-on

846
00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:19,470
type of situation you have to move when

847
00:41:24,349 --> 00:41:21,150
something like this happens there's been

848
00:41:26,270 --> 00:41:24,359
there's been failures all along and you

849
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:26,280
know in the walk of life and every

850
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:28,650
science it's it's no different than you

851
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:31,200
have a shuttle explode on you and what

852
00:41:36,890 --> 00:41:34,650
do you do and you know we held NASA to

853
00:41:38,930 --> 00:41:36,900
the fire when you think about and I was

854
00:41:41,390 --> 00:41:38,940
the first one and one of the used to be

855
00:41:43,069 --> 00:41:41,400
on our board of directors at the Center

856
00:41:45,859 --> 00:41:43,079
for UFO studies and he was an engineer

857
00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:45,869
worked at Johnson control in Houston and

858
00:41:52,789 --> 00:41:48,180
he was there at the time of the the the

859
00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:52,799
the Challenger explosion and I would

860
00:41:57,859 --> 00:41:54,780
even bring up to him at a board meeting

861
00:42:00,170 --> 00:41:57,869
you know a plane can crash and the next

862
00:42:01,970 --> 00:42:00,180
plane they board you know the next set

863
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:01,980
of people and they go right back up and

864
00:42:06,380 --> 00:42:04,650
NASA has an it has an accident and it

865
00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:06,390
grounds the entire project for three

866
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:11,609
years so who's being you know overly

867
00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:13,680
cautious who's not willing to put it

868
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:15,960
behind them okay now what don't we

869
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:18,720
repeat and how do we move forward so I

870
00:42:24,190 --> 00:42:20,730
guess we could do that with a slide as

871
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:24,200
well but the point being I immediately

872
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:27,119
tried to disown any connection to

873
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:30,000
Roswell so in no way should the slides

874
00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:32,160
and keeping other people around you

875
00:42:35,089 --> 00:42:34,500
though and I think that possibly you may

876
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:35,099
have been you

877
00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:38,880
just to influence that condition like

878
00:42:44,509 --> 00:42:41,430
here's a Roswell investigator right yes

879
00:42:47,450 --> 00:42:44,519
behind the slides so you know kind of I

880
00:42:50,479 --> 00:42:47,460
think I think you know the showmanship

881
00:42:53,630 --> 00:42:50,489
and you know all that of Jaime just it's

882
00:42:55,309 --> 00:42:53,640
it it's an unfortunate unfortunate

883
00:42:57,229 --> 00:42:55,319
situation you're right I know exactly

884
00:43:02,719 --> 00:42:57,239
what you mean about moved on to the next

885
00:43:04,940 --> 00:43:02,729
one i sat there that evening and Tom

886
00:43:07,940 --> 00:43:04,950
Carey could tell you I kept why aren't

887
00:43:10,430 --> 00:43:07,950
they showing the second slide why aren't

888
00:43:12,349 --> 00:43:10,440
they showing this the second image yes

889
00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:12,359
and then they finally did at the very

890
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:17,660
end and prior to that we had only seen

891
00:43:24,049 --> 00:43:20,579
condensed people are the impression that

892
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:24,059
we had the slides in our possession that

893
00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:25,529
we were the ones that were then able to

894
00:43:29,809 --> 00:43:27,390
take them and have them examine and test

895
00:43:33,950 --> 00:43:29,819
it and date or not no no no no they were

896
00:43:36,759 --> 00:43:33,960
never you know provided us as far as any

897
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:36,769
such opportunity we had to rely on scans

898
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:40,880
the placard for example the placard that

899
00:43:48,799 --> 00:43:45,599
we saw was clearly doctored it was it

900
00:43:50,959 --> 00:43:48,809
was it was a script really in fact I

901
00:43:54,410 --> 00:43:50,969
would then ask why was it that the likes

902
00:43:58,759 --> 00:43:54,420
of dr. David Rudy AK and studio Macbeth

903
00:44:00,440 --> 00:43:58,769
and as far as even a military officer at

904
00:44:02,479 --> 00:44:00,450
the Pentagon that we asked to look at

905
00:44:04,759 --> 00:44:02,489
this and they would tell us that even

906
00:44:07,999 --> 00:44:04,769
Adobe looked at that placard and nobody

907
00:44:11,049 --> 00:44:08,009
was able to decipher a single letter and

908
00:44:15,529 --> 00:44:11,059
then when we actually saw it it's like

909
00:44:19,789 --> 00:44:15,539
this isn't block letter this is block

910
00:44:22,789 --> 00:44:19,799
this isn't script who changed that Wow

911
00:44:25,579 --> 00:44:22,799
and even as far as the body that we

912
00:44:28,130 --> 00:44:25,589
always saw it you know as far as a tight

913
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:28,140
cropped image and then when I actually

914
00:44:35,180 --> 00:44:30,690
see for the first time in Mexico City

915
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:35,190
the full museum display and you see the

916
00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:37,170
displays in the background so the next

917
00:44:43,489 --> 00:44:39,630
afternoon I'm in Jaime massan's office

918
00:44:45,979 --> 00:44:43,499
in Mexico City and I go Jaime I want to

919
00:44:49,310 --> 00:44:45,989
see the second slide I want to see it

920
00:44:52,270 --> 00:44:49,320
right now why do you need to see it Don

921
00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:52,280
I said Jaime I want to see it right now

922
00:45:01,490 --> 00:44:56,670
and so by the time I left from Mexico

923
00:45:04,970 --> 00:45:01,500
City I knew I knew it was all did you

924
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:04,980
did you think your I don't want to say

925
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:07,590
career but either you followed you field

926
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:09,120
did you think it was over for you

927
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:11,370
or how did you how did you feel at that

928
00:45:16,730 --> 00:45:14,760
moment only if I allowed it yeah only if

929
00:45:19,820 --> 00:45:16,740
I allowed all the nays is because I had

930
00:45:21,970 --> 00:45:19,830
a lot of you know my my true friends and

931
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:21,980
colleagues in the field just say Don

932
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:25,130
learn from it yeah move forward from it

933
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:30,390
because it's something that as we know I

934
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:32,250
mean there are surgeons who lose

935
00:45:36,980 --> 00:45:35,130
patients and they could also throw in

936
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:36,990
the towel and it's life and death

937
00:45:42,890 --> 00:45:40,680
yeah and the idea that and again it

938
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:42,900
wasn't that it was my cop-out it wasn't

939
00:45:46,130 --> 00:45:45,210
my fault back then well the scientists

940
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:46,140
are the ones that blew it

941
00:45:53,210 --> 00:45:49,910
no I blew it Donna Schmidt blew it I

942
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:53,220
again Incept going even by my gut

943
00:45:58,670 --> 00:45:55,560
impression tom Carey could tell you that

944
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,680
that January just months before the

945
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:00,720
presentation in Mexico City

946
00:46:05,810 --> 00:46:03,450
I wanted the bail I kept going Tom I

947
00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:05,820
don't feel right by this I don't like

948
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:10,350
this and he again Don stand by me on

949
00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:15,510
this stand by me on this and so yeah I I

950
00:46:19,340 --> 00:46:17,460
still respect you and I'm glad that you

951
00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:19,350
thank you that I'm glad you're here

952
00:46:24,620 --> 00:46:22,260
thank you all I will add Martin is that

953
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:24,630
just imagine and I put it this way

954
00:46:29,810 --> 00:46:27,210
imagine if Travis Walton would have his

955
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:29,820
experience today I think the internet

956
00:46:36,130 --> 00:46:33,450
would rip him to shreds overnight yeah I

957
00:46:39,110 --> 00:46:36,140
think what's what's happening nowadays

958
00:46:41,390 --> 00:46:39,120
and I think that's where even Heineken

959
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:41,400
media - I think even Hynek I don't know

960
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:43,410
how he would have dealt with it because

961
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:45,330
I think the worst of it is now keeping

962
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:47,930
in mind that he made a major faux pas

963
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:51,330
with just his labeling or explaining

964
00:46:55,730 --> 00:46:54,510
away one particular sighting as swamp

965
00:46:58,760 --> 00:46:55,740
gas yes

966
00:47:01,880 --> 00:46:58,770
amidst a flood of sightings and he was

967
00:47:03,050 --> 00:47:01,890
not able to outlive that I mean until

968
00:47:05,420 --> 00:47:03,060
the

969
00:47:09,140 --> 00:47:05,430
he died he was still pologize afford at

970
00:47:11,540 --> 00:47:09,150
Wow so just imagine they're spies with

971
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:11,550
social media today yeah so is it any

972
00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:14,550
wonder any of us are able to still move

973
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:16,680
forward yeah so well you know we move

974
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:20,010
forward yeah I get hate mail and trolls

975
00:47:24,620 --> 00:47:22,260
and all that on you know it depends on

976
00:47:26,990 --> 00:47:24,630
where they find me and and it and it's

977
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:27,000
okay you know I mean I'm not I don't

978
00:47:30,530 --> 00:47:28,890
feel threatened by it I just keep moving

979
00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:30,540
on because I like what I do and that's

980
00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:33,480
what's important to me I don't care if

981
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,950
someone doesn't like what I do it's okay

982
00:47:40,070 --> 00:47:36,960
they don't have to listen and how much

983
00:47:42,830 --> 00:47:40,080
of it is just pettiness and jealousy and

984
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:42,840
the point that you're doing something

985
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:46,680
that maybe they'll never do and they

986
00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:48,720
attack you for it yeah because you're in

987
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:52,980
their way yeah it's not like okay we're

988
00:47:58,520 --> 00:47:56,310
all grown-ups here let's move on yeah as

989
00:48:04,370 --> 00:47:58,530
opposed to let's just keep opening up

990
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:04,380
the scab so going back to Hynek what do

991
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:07,710
you know about his turning point was

992
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:10,290
Socorro part of his turning point it was

993
00:48:16,430 --> 00:48:14,280
it was gradual but Socorro was probably

994
00:48:19,370 --> 00:48:16,440
the lynchpin was probably as far as the

995
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:19,380
the definitive turning point because he

996
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:21,290
had to concede that this was a

997
00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:24,570
nuts-and-bolts object that actually

998
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:27,180
touched down and but he was still the

999
00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:29,970
good soldier for the Air Force in fact a

1000
00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:34,910
Paul Hardin is the Socorro historian and

1001
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:38,670
if you were to go and ask like where did

1002
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:41,130
all the photographs go I mean there were

1003
00:48:46,220 --> 00:48:43,250
photographs of even the footprints

1004
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:46,230
before they were all obscured by some of

1005
00:48:51,020 --> 00:48:49,140
the original sightseers that came in so

1006
00:48:54,340 --> 00:48:51,030
there were the footprints of the like

1007
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:54,350
ten foot year ten ten year old child

1008
00:48:59,960 --> 00:48:57,690
still present at the site Wow

1009
00:49:03,670 --> 00:48:59,970
so there's like a sandy area that it's a

1010
00:49:06,980 --> 00:49:03,680
it's a it's a sandy it's within a Roya a

1011
00:49:09,950 --> 00:49:06,990
lot of brush but it's within this swill

1012
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:09,960
within this hollow and in fact there's a

1013
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:12,890
dummy site there's a another site that

1014
00:49:19,220 --> 00:49:16,650
they will take you to but it's just stay

1015
00:49:21,549 --> 00:49:19,230
it's down site from the original the

1016
00:49:25,370 --> 00:49:21,559
true site only a few people know about

1017
00:49:27,319 --> 00:49:25,380
because the cluster of the stones where

1018
00:49:29,690 --> 00:49:27,329
the landing gear touched are still there

1019
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:29,700
yes ray Stanford was there in time and

1020
00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:33,890
still precisely and the point being that

1021
00:49:42,620 --> 00:49:39,180
because even Lonnie Zamora himself he

1022
00:49:44,059 --> 00:49:42,630
was so shook he was so upset by what he

1023
00:49:46,279 --> 00:49:44,069
had just seen by what he just

1024
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:46,289
experienced he didn't go back to the

1025
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:48,900
police station he went right to his

1026
00:49:54,109 --> 00:49:51,930
parish priest he thought he experienced

1027
00:49:57,849 --> 00:49:54,119
something demonic that's right yeah I've

1028
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:57,859
heard that and so you have all these

1029
00:50:05,029 --> 00:50:01,520
people who were standing with Zamora and

1030
00:50:06,769 --> 00:50:05,039
you have then all the photographs and

1031
00:50:07,309 --> 00:50:06,779
you talked to the historian weren't at

1032
00:50:16,609 --> 00:50:07,319
all

1033
00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:16,619
Air Force and who was the one who went

1034
00:50:23,870 --> 00:50:21,779
and compass Allen Hynek so he was

1035
00:50:28,010 --> 00:50:23,880
against still being the good Air Force

1036
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:28,020
yeah consultant and he did whatever they

1037
00:50:32,839 --> 00:50:29,910
instructed him they're doing he gathered

1038
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:32,849
it all up and it wasn't like it's now

1039
00:50:38,029 --> 00:50:35,160
mine or I get copies of all that's

1040
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:38,039
correct it was like no so nobody ever

1041
00:50:43,630 --> 00:50:40,710
will see any of this and that's why it's

1042
00:50:46,839 --> 00:50:43,640
not part of Blue Book and that's the sad

1043
00:50:49,849 --> 00:50:46,849
the saddest featuring all this and that

1044
00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:49,859
Allen stayed with the Air Force because

1045
00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:56,190
he wanted to have access to the data but

1046
00:51:02,240 --> 00:50:58,559
the data was all a secondhand it was

1047
00:51:04,779 --> 00:51:02,250
always subpar it was never as he put it

1048
00:51:08,750 --> 00:51:04,789
as I said earlier the hardcore cases and

1049
00:51:11,710 --> 00:51:08,760
so coral was hardcore was as hardcore as

1050
00:51:15,769 --> 00:51:11,720
it gets and even there he was robbed

1051
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:15,779
even there he wasn't the spokesperson

1052
00:51:21,079 --> 00:51:18,450
you won't find any footage of Allen

1053
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:21,089
talking about swamp gas there you had

1054
00:51:30,109 --> 00:51:27,599
two years later in Michigan he was did

1055
00:51:30,530 --> 00:51:30,119
you can you talk about any cases that

1056
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:30,540
you were

1057
00:51:36,650 --> 00:51:34,650
directly with him on and Koufos there

1058
00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:36,660
were they were mostly they were either

1059
00:51:41,810 --> 00:51:39,510
Illinois cases or even Wisconsin cases

1060
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:41,820
there was a Port Washington case there

1061
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:45,050
was even a Cedarburg Wisconsin case and

1062
00:51:52,510 --> 00:51:48,960
in those situations it was us going into

1063
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:52,520
the field investigating the case

1064
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:54,450
tracking down and interviewing one of

1065
00:52:00,590 --> 00:51:56,160
the witnesses and then providing the

1066
00:52:03,380 --> 00:52:00,600
final report dr. Hynek the last case was

1067
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:03,390
just across the border just north of

1068
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:07,530
Illinois and Alan was especially keen on

1069
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:09,810
the case because it involved a whole

1070
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:11,970
group of elderly people who were

1071
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:14,400
outdoors for an evening and then there

1072
00:52:24,110 --> 00:52:19,050
was a fire that seemed to develop in the

1073
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:24,120
area that the UFO arrived and the

1074
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:26,850
possibility of the the UFO caused the

1075
00:52:33,110 --> 00:52:29,610
grass fire and it all happen you know

1076
00:52:37,210 --> 00:52:33,120
you know simultaneously and so so he was

1077
00:52:40,190 --> 00:52:37,220
leading towards the the high unusual

1078
00:52:42,140 --> 00:52:40,200
that type of thing and and he would

1079
00:52:44,980 --> 00:52:42,150
often tell me that what I like about you

1080
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:44,990
Don is because you even even correct me

1081
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,690
because we later determined that it was

1082
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:50,400
in the flight that was in the approach

1083
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:54,450
path of a private runway a private pilot

1084
00:52:59,420 --> 00:52:57,810
and he smoked and he would you know

1085
00:53:01,460 --> 00:52:59,430
often he would toss a butt out the

1086
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:01,470
window as he would come in and that's

1087
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:02,910
what caused the fire that even the fire

1088
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:05,010
marshal didn't come up with that Wow and

1089
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:07,170
so and we found you know we later found

1090
00:53:15,650 --> 00:53:09,050
the cigarette butt that type of thing

1091
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:15,660
and so and because we were very

1092
00:53:20,990 --> 00:53:18,930
skeptical I mean Alan Henry was our

1093
00:53:25,580 --> 00:53:21,000
chief investigator he was the consummate

1094
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:25,590
skeptic but that's where dr. J Allen

1095
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:30,090
Hynek relied on us especially in his his

1096
00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:31,740
latter years and he would always talked

1097
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:33,180
about you know you're always coming I'm

1098
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:34,800
an old man in a hurry I'm an old man in

1099
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:35,310
a hurry

1100
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:37,980
and we were afraid because there was a

1101
00:53:44,510 --> 00:53:40,140
mystical there was a mystical part of

1102
00:53:46,580 --> 00:53:44,520
dr. Hynek in that he even

1103
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:46,590
suggests that what we need to get even

1104
00:53:52,550 --> 00:53:50,220
magicians and psychics involved because

1105
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:52,560
how can people be fooled like when the

1106
00:53:59,960 --> 00:53:56,370
the great the amazing Kreskin did this

1107
00:54:02,270 --> 00:53:59,970
group hypnosis at some presentation up

1108
00:54:05,710 --> 00:54:02,280
in Canada and dr. Hynek was was present

1109
00:54:08,420 --> 00:54:05,720
and Kreskin at Allen's bequest

1110
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:08,430
demonstrated that I could hypnotize an

1111
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:10,530
entire audience to believe that with a

1112
00:54:16,850 --> 00:54:13,530
particular trigger they all will just

1113
00:54:19,850 --> 00:54:16,860
start start described UFOs and they did

1114
00:54:21,860 --> 00:54:19,860
they went outside they were all glancing

1115
00:54:23,660 --> 00:54:21,870
up at the sky and he rang a bell or

1116
00:54:26,450 --> 00:54:23,670
something and one by one they were all

1117
00:54:28,970 --> 00:54:26,460
we are describing UFOs so so that's

1118
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:28,980
where dr. Hynek you know this idea of

1119
00:54:35,410 --> 00:54:31,830
even mass hallucination

1120
00:54:38,810 --> 00:54:35,420
and even you know psychic projection and

1121
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:38,820
trickery magic that type of thing

1122
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:41,370
and I think that and and dr. Hynek

1123
00:54:45,980 --> 00:54:42,930
always relied on must I was kind of

1124
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:45,990
pulling back that we still you know we

1125
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:49,110
need something as another investigator

1126
00:54:53,060 --> 00:54:50,640
said you can go across street and kick

1127
00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:53,070
the tires yeah there that's the only

1128
00:54:57,590 --> 00:54:55,350
thing that's going to the monstrously

1129
00:55:01,220 --> 00:54:57,600
prove that were dealing with an actual

1130
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:01,230
phenomena right so you knew him

1131
00:55:06,110 --> 00:55:04,290
throughout the last part of his life and

1132
00:55:11,210 --> 00:55:06,120
when he passed away you mentioned going

1133
00:55:13,130 --> 00:55:11,220
through some notes what kind of what

1134
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:13,140
kind of a situation was that were you

1135
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:15,960
able to was it me me did you say his

1136
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:19,980
wife yes was she she remained in

1137
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:24,210
Scottsdale this was where you had the

1138
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:27,450
Lynn himer Observatory on Lake Michigan

1139
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:30,090
and Alan's stored a lot of us files

1140
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:35,250
there and dr. mark Creager and former

1141
00:55:40,790 --> 00:55:38,310
board member mark Chesney rod eager and

1142
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:40,800
Chesney were childhood friends and they

1143
00:55:45,830 --> 00:55:43,410
went through they went to the the Lynn

1144
00:55:48,620 --> 00:55:45,840
heimer Observatory hoping that Alan had

1145
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:48,630
stashed away a lot of even old Blue Book

1146
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:51,440
cases that weren't part of the

1147
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,240
Declassified Blue Book files of 1977

1148
00:55:57,940 --> 00:55:56,880
that type of thing and according to rod

1149
00:56:01,039 --> 00:55:57,950
a Grinch has

1150
00:56:03,319 --> 00:56:01,049
somebody had rife went through you know

1151
00:56:06,289 --> 00:56:03,329
the observatory everything was trashed

1152
00:56:08,509 --> 00:56:06,299
chase and I didn't doubt them I just

1153
00:56:10,910 --> 00:56:08,519
thought wow the only somebody actually

1154
00:56:12,499 --> 00:56:10,920
beat you if you beat us to the punch so

1155
00:56:15,229 --> 00:56:12,509
to speak and they worried well yes

1156
00:56:17,479 --> 00:56:15,239
somebody actually you know had rifled

1157
00:56:20,299 --> 00:56:17,489
through the file cabinets

1158
00:56:22,759 --> 00:56:20,309
you know I not usually all right don't

1159
00:56:25,569 --> 00:56:22,769
think I'm a conspiratorial type guy but

1160
00:56:29,029 --> 00:56:25,579
that sure sounds like a conspiracy to me

1161
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:29,039
like government possibly and considering

1162
00:56:34,729 --> 00:56:32,880
who we were dealing with Allen Hynek had

1163
00:56:37,969 --> 00:56:34,739
a top security clearance with the Air

1164
00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:37,979
Force all those years and we often

1165
00:56:42,589 --> 00:56:40,710
questioned whether he had one till the

1166
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:42,599
day he died if he had signed a

1167
00:56:48,709 --> 00:56:46,140
non-disclosure for example and they kept

1168
00:56:52,459 --> 00:56:48,719
him on a tight leash in his ladder the

1169
00:56:54,829 --> 00:56:52,469
last year or two of Bluebook he was you

1170
00:56:57,739 --> 00:56:54,839
know he was cooperating more and more

1171
00:57:00,380 --> 00:56:57,749
with his own sign scientific colleagues

1172
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,390
he was lecturing more and more he was

1173
00:57:05,029 --> 00:57:02,400
you know doing more and more television

1174
00:57:07,999 --> 00:57:05,039
he was doing Merv Griffin and Tom

1175
00:57:09,709 --> 00:57:08,009
Schneider and that type of thing and so

1176
00:57:12,650 --> 00:57:09,719
I think they realized that we got a

1177
00:57:15,289 --> 00:57:12,660
loose cannon here that now he's gonna

1178
00:57:17,749 --> 00:57:15,299
you know he's going to become the

1179
00:57:21,079 --> 00:57:17,759
conduit people are gonna come to him I

1180
00:57:23,180 --> 00:57:21,089
mean we essentially you know closed the

1181
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:23,190
curtain on our involvement why should we

1182
00:57:29,420 --> 00:57:24,839
expect anybody to come to the air force

1183
00:57:33,410 --> 00:57:29,430
any longer and so it caused us often to

1184
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:33,420
wonder if Hynek was still connected hmm

1185
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:36,450
to some degree and I think that's why we

1186
00:57:44,180 --> 00:57:39,599
hope to find all types of you know

1187
00:57:46,190 --> 00:57:44,190
secret documents and they weren't to be

1188
00:57:48,940 --> 00:57:46,200
found we found those handwritten notes

1189
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:48,950
regarding Roswell witnesses we found

1190
00:57:56,029 --> 00:57:52,410
some other documents you know back to

1191
00:57:59,029 --> 00:57:56,039
the early 50s that suggested that they

1192
00:58:02,029 --> 00:57:59,039
were concerned about like the CIA and

1193
00:58:05,719 --> 00:58:02,039
the whole Robertson panel taking over

1194
00:58:08,660 --> 00:58:05,729
the project and I know dr. Jacques

1195
00:58:10,609 --> 00:58:08,670
Vallee you know believe that that would

1196
00:58:13,789 --> 00:58:10,619
suggest that there was another prod

1197
00:58:17,749 --> 00:58:13,799
under way at that time and I know dr.

1198
00:58:21,279 --> 00:58:17,759
Radha ger and dr. Hynix secretary Jenny

1199
00:58:24,709 --> 00:58:21,289
Simon who was with him from Ohio State

1200
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:24,719
and in there after that they

1201
00:58:29,479 --> 00:58:27,119
investigated that and they found you

1202
00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:29,489
know no reason to believe that so of

1203
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:31,680
anything we were able to demonstrate

1204
00:58:38,569 --> 00:58:35,119
that as much as they may have watched

1205
00:58:41,420 --> 00:58:38,579
even from a distance that that Allen

1206
00:58:46,339 --> 00:58:41,430
Hynek was still an old man in a hurry

1207
00:58:48,229 --> 00:58:46,349
that he he felt he was hard-pressed to

1208
00:58:53,059 --> 00:58:48,239
come up with some some answers at the

1209
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:53,069
end and personally he died very bitter

1210
00:59:00,380 --> 00:58:56,880
very broken I think he he truly expected

1211
00:59:03,319 --> 00:59:00,390
that he would have a courier or he'd get

1212
00:59:07,390 --> 00:59:03,329
a phone call at the least at the end and

1213
00:59:11,809 --> 00:59:07,400
would say Alan you were correct

1214
00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:11,819
you knew but we couldn't tell you we

1215
00:59:17,779 --> 00:59:14,910
couldn't confide to you till now thought

1216
00:59:20,859 --> 00:59:17,789
Godspeed you know wherever you go from

1217
00:59:24,289 --> 00:59:20,869
here you'll really know the whole story

1218
00:59:27,259 --> 00:59:24,299
you never got that wow you never receive

1219
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:27,269
that and to me it was often and and

1220
00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:29,910
early on after Alan passed away it was

1221
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:32,940
like we gotta finish what he started

1222
00:59:38,509 --> 00:59:36,210
you know that he would want us to finish

1223
00:59:39,469 --> 00:59:38,519
Lee because believe me Martin there was

1224
00:59:42,190 --> 00:59:39,479
a lot of talk

1225
00:59:44,089 --> 00:59:42,200
initially at Koufos how do we go on

1226
00:59:47,569 --> 00:59:44,099
Holloway and I think the first

1227
00:59:49,579 --> 00:59:47,579
demonstration was that we renamed the

1228
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:49,589
center that J Alan Hynek

1229
00:59:58,339 --> 00:59:56,130
Center for UFO studies what has just

1230
01:00:00,829 --> 00:59:58,349
worked out of time here basically but

1231
01:00:03,739 --> 01:00:00,839
what do you have anything you can say

1232
01:00:05,390 --> 01:00:03,749
about the man that is kind of unknown

1233
01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:05,400
something interesting about his

1234
01:00:13,969 --> 01:00:10,249
personality you know other than UFOs are

1235
01:00:16,370 --> 01:00:13,979
he had a wonderful sense of humor he was

1236
01:00:19,279 --> 01:00:16,380
a consummate you know absent-minded

1237
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:19,289
professor and he joked about it I mean

1238
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:22,319
he loved the lighter side of the subject

1239
01:00:26,180 --> 01:00:24,480
matter Alan Henry

1240
01:00:30,740 --> 01:00:26,190
as our chief investigator was a

1241
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:30,750
wonderful artist often drew dr. Hynek as

1242
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:32,850
far as in compromising positions even

1243
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:34,530
but men and black and that type of thing

1244
01:00:41,150 --> 01:00:38,850
and Allan Ritter just reveled in it he

1245
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:41,160
just relish you know the opportunity you

1246
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:44,250
know the self-infliction as far as that

1247
01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:46,650
and and there too we demonstrated that

1248
01:00:52,370 --> 01:00:49,440
there's nothing in life so serious that

1249
01:00:55,220 --> 01:00:52,380
you can't step back and at least at

1250
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:55,230
least be amused by it but if not have a

1251
01:01:00,050 --> 01:00:57,570
good laugh over it and get over it and

1252
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:00,060
then get on with it yeah and the point

1253
01:01:04,340 --> 01:01:02,850
always coming back to you know we can

1254
01:01:07,310 --> 01:01:04,350
always live in the past but it doesn't

1255
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:07,320
get it done and Alan was always moving

1256
01:01:12,290 --> 01:01:09,570
forward dr. J Allen Hynek always

1257
01:01:14,599 --> 01:01:12,300
relished and looked forward to the next

1258
01:01:17,390 --> 01:01:14,609
day and the next case the next sighting

1259
01:01:20,210 --> 01:01:17,400
he listened to the mundane II I mean he

1260
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:20,220
never you know turned away anybody that

1261
01:01:25,670 --> 01:01:22,290
was the wonderful thing he taught me and

1262
01:01:27,710 --> 01:01:25,680
I like to believe that I too I hear

1263
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:27,720
people you know talking about I just

1264
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:29,280
don't understand on how do you have all

1265
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:32,850
this patience it's because if they feel

1266
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:35,490
I'm good enough that they can you know

1267
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:38,640
express in confidence what they've they

1268
01:01:42,830 --> 01:01:40,290
can't get anybody else to talk to and

1269
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:42,840
why would I want to join the legions of

1270
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:44,400
people who are gonna laugh at them

1271
01:01:50,510 --> 01:01:48,330
and belittle them and have a laugh at

1272
01:01:52,220 --> 01:01:50,520
their expense no yeah well I just

1273
01:01:54,020 --> 01:01:52,230
witnessed that with you in the lobby

1274
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:54,030
with a woman that said you've always

1275
01:01:58,490 --> 01:01:55,920
been so kind to me and listened to me

1276
01:02:01,040 --> 01:01:58,500
well I didn't realize you caught I did

1277
01:02:03,140 --> 01:02:01,050
catch that thank you thank you so Donald

1278
01:02:04,700 --> 01:02:03,150
as always it's been a real pleasure and

1279
01:02:06,470 --> 01:02:04,710
thank you so much well I went quickly

1280
01:02:09,620 --> 01:02:06,480
Martin and I again thank you for the

1281
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:09,630
opportunity thank you absolutely all

1282
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:12,510
right so that was it for Don Schmidt now

1283
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:15,930
our next guest is coming up and her name

1284
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:18,330
is Alice druffle she's the daughter of

1285
01:02:24,849 --> 01:02:21,510
the famed UFO researcher and author and

1286
01:02:28,730 --> 01:02:24,859
druffle she's also an environmental

1287
01:02:30,290 --> 01:02:28,740
advocate and a classical singer it's a

1288
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:30,300
great interview as I said in the

1289
01:02:34,820 --> 01:02:32,250
beginning we're gonna be talking about

1290
01:02:37,590 --> 01:02:34,830
her mother and ruffle what it was like

1291
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:37,600
growing up and a childhood home

1292
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:41,410
someone so unique as an druffle also

1293
01:02:46,890 --> 01:02:43,690
James McDonald we're gonna be talking a

1294
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:46,900
lot about him and another very heartfelt

1295
01:02:53,930 --> 01:02:50,610
interview that I'm very happy about so

1296
01:02:58,790 --> 01:02:53,940
hang in there we'll be right back with

1297
01:03:46,839 --> 01:03:21,920
[Music]

1298
01:03:52,219 --> 01:03:49,489
all right I'm here with Alice truffle

1299
01:03:56,569 --> 01:03:52,229
welcome to the show thank you and you

1300
01:03:59,449 --> 01:03:56,579
have a distinguished mother and very

1301
01:04:02,299 --> 01:03:59,459
well known in the UFO field I do a

1302
01:04:05,359 --> 01:04:02,309
distinguished mother and druffle yes and

1303
01:04:09,259 --> 01:04:05,369
I was happy to be asked to the UFO

1304
01:04:13,749 --> 01:04:09,269
Congress to present on her behalf and I

1305
01:04:16,849 --> 01:04:13,759
wish that I could do a somewhat get-out

1306
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:16,859
parody and take her brain and put it in

1307
01:04:22,459 --> 01:04:20,160
my head just for that hour but I was

1308
01:04:26,359 --> 01:04:22,469
unable to yeah because she has an

1309
01:04:29,499 --> 01:04:26,369
encyclopedic memory all the UFO cases

1310
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:29,509
she's worked on and heard about written

1311
01:04:34,819 --> 01:04:32,130
investigated now what what got her

1312
01:04:36,459 --> 01:04:34,829
started in the very beginning what what

1313
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:36,469
sparked her interest in the whole field

1314
01:04:45,650 --> 01:04:40,880
in 1945 when she was still a young girl

1315
01:04:48,109 --> 01:04:45,660
she saw something over long beach she

1316
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:48,119
was coming home from school and right

1317
01:04:54,140 --> 01:04:50,400
before she went into the house she saw

1318
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:54,150
this big huge craft in the sky

1319
01:05:01,069 --> 01:04:58,319
she did not know it was it she was

1320
01:05:03,079 --> 01:05:01,079
almost transfixed by it and she states

1321
01:05:07,609 --> 01:05:03,089
that it stayed there for about an hour

1322
01:05:10,370 --> 01:05:07,619
and a half now this was just before the

1323
01:05:13,219 --> 01:05:10,380
end of World War two so she thought it

1324
01:05:16,849 --> 01:05:13,229
had something to do at first with an

1325
01:05:19,009 --> 01:05:16,859
aircraft related to the war effort but

1326
01:05:21,199 --> 01:05:19,019
the more she stared at it the more she

1327
01:05:23,029 --> 01:05:21,209
understood that it did not and the funny

1328
01:05:25,099 --> 01:05:23,039
thing is it stayed in the sky for an

1329
01:05:27,859 --> 01:05:25,109
hour and a half she even called her

1330
01:05:30,319 --> 01:05:27,869
mother over to look at it and my

1331
01:05:33,049 --> 01:05:30,329
grandmother was a very kind of serious

1332
01:05:35,839 --> 01:05:33,059
you know studied person and she came out

1333
01:05:38,569 --> 01:05:35,849
and she said oh it's a weather balloon

1334
01:05:42,229 --> 01:05:38,579
and she went back and my mother said it

1335
01:05:44,449 --> 01:05:42,239
was not a weather balloon and she called

1336
01:05:47,209 --> 01:05:44,459
her mother to come back and look at it

1337
01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:47,219
and her mother said I have to cook

1338
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:48,390
dinner for your father

1339
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:52,079
so she stared at it for about an hour

1340
01:05:59,930 --> 01:05:53,250
and a half and then she

1341
01:06:02,930 --> 01:05:59,940
said it seemed to eject many other small

1342
01:06:05,870 --> 01:06:02,940
things as if this had been kind of like

1343
01:06:08,540 --> 01:06:05,880
a mothership mm-hmm and when that

1344
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:08,550
happened she just got very very scared

1345
01:06:15,380 --> 01:06:11,250
and went into the house but that was the

1346
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:15,390
beginning of her interest but she was

1347
01:06:22,910 --> 01:06:19,200
interested in astronomy she wanted to

1348
01:06:25,970 --> 01:06:22,920
study astronomy in college and she was

1349
01:06:28,670 --> 01:06:25,980
told by the teachers oh that's that's

1350
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:28,680
not a subject that women study so she

1351
01:06:34,010 --> 01:06:31,850
was yeah unfortunately but she was

1352
01:06:36,770 --> 01:06:34,020
interested in astronomy her whole life

1353
01:06:39,290 --> 01:06:36,780
and she became somewhat of a an amateur

1354
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:39,300
astronomer mm-hmm she built her own

1355
01:06:45,740 --> 01:06:42,330
telescope built her own telescope yeah

1356
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:45,750
and so she was always telling us things

1357
01:06:50,510 --> 01:06:47,850
in the sky and that's what made her

1358
01:06:53,210 --> 01:06:50,520
wonderful researcher as well she could

1359
01:06:55,610 --> 01:06:53,220
explain away 90% of the cases when

1360
01:06:58,280 --> 01:06:55,620
people called because she knew the sky

1361
01:07:02,530 --> 01:06:58,290
so well and she knew the position of the

1362
01:07:05,060 --> 01:07:02,540
stars and the planets and what was the

1363
01:07:09,260 --> 01:07:05,070
for the body of the research that she

1364
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:09,270
did like a time you know from 19 say 60

1365
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:11,010
something - well I mean what was the

1366
01:07:18,770 --> 01:07:13,170
timeline and how long's she researched I

1367
01:07:21,650 --> 01:07:18,780
would say it was a good 50 years I'm

1368
01:07:24,550 --> 01:07:21,660
thinking mid-60s she became involved

1369
01:07:28,850 --> 01:07:24,560
with NICAP before it was unfortunately

1370
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:28,860
disbanded and she wrote about 200

1371
01:07:38,050 --> 01:07:32,850
articles in various news publications

1372
01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:38,060
uh-huh and what is some of the cases now

1373
01:07:46,220 --> 01:07:42,510
before I finish that thought I just I

1374
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:46,230
was speaking earlier with Don Schmidt

1375
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:51,090
and I asked him did Alan Hynek know

1376
01:07:55,790 --> 01:07:54,090
anything about roswell ahead of time you

1377
01:07:57,950 --> 01:07:55,800
know ahead of when I when I say ahead of

1378
01:08:02,240 --> 01:07:57,960
time ahead at that time when it came out

1379
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:02,250
so to speak when you know Stan Freeman

1380
01:08:06,530 --> 01:08:05,490
you know found out all the information

1381
01:08:08,810 --> 01:08:06,540
and you know

1382
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:08,820
book came out after a lot of people

1383
01:08:14,030 --> 01:08:12,090
never remembered Roswell and she started

1384
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:14,040
the 60s of course that's much later in

1385
01:08:21,020 --> 01:08:17,310
the 1947 but had that subject ever come

1386
01:08:23,090 --> 01:08:21,030
up that the Army Air Force said that

1387
01:08:26,420 --> 01:08:23,100
they captured a disc and was that just

1388
01:08:29,150 --> 01:08:26,430
forgotten no that was still very much in

1389
01:08:32,650 --> 01:08:29,160
the minds of people so of course she

1390
01:08:37,039 --> 01:08:32,660
wasn't there originally to study it but

1391
01:08:40,970 --> 01:08:37,049
we grew up hearing about this and Wow

1392
01:08:45,860 --> 01:08:40,980
there were so many you know news reports

1393
01:08:52,599 --> 01:08:45,870
the movies the the shows about Roswell

1394
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:52,609
and my mother was fascinated with that

1395
01:09:00,380 --> 01:08:56,250
though she never really investigated

1396
01:09:04,700 --> 01:09:00,390
herself but when you ask my mother mom

1397
01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:04,710
do you believe in UFOs she would say I

1398
01:09:10,849 --> 01:09:07,440
want to see a body or I want to see a

1399
01:09:12,860 --> 01:09:10,859
craft before I will definitely say yes

1400
01:09:16,309 --> 01:09:12,870
to that Wow

1401
01:09:21,410 --> 01:09:16,319
but she was she heard all of the the

1402
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:21,420
tales of Roswell just as a side note on

1403
01:09:26,620 --> 01:09:22,080
Roswell

1404
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:26,630
I know a woman who's at my church and

1405
01:09:35,270 --> 01:09:30,770
she grew up in Roswell New Mexico huh

1406
01:09:39,710 --> 01:09:35,280
but she was born like around 1945 but

1407
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:39,720
she swears that there was an undertaker

1408
01:09:45,380 --> 01:09:42,930
in town and that at the time that the

1409
01:09:50,599 --> 01:09:45,390
roswell sighting happened

1410
01:09:53,930 --> 01:09:50,609
this person was called to to provide

1411
01:09:59,210 --> 01:09:53,940
three small caskets to the Roswell Air

1412
01:10:02,360 --> 01:09:59,220
Force Base now is this has she talked

1413
01:10:06,110 --> 01:10:02,370
about this to someone like Don Schmitt

1414
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:06,120
or other people that that's good because

1415
01:10:11,990 --> 01:10:09,600
this may be some type of cooperation

1416
01:10:15,550 --> 01:10:12,000
because I think there are some people

1417
01:10:20,030 --> 01:10:15,560
that are skeptic skeptical about that

1418
01:10:22,910 --> 01:10:20,040
claim how did she know about that

1419
01:10:24,140 --> 01:10:22,920
in particular was it hearsay or did she

1420
01:10:27,380 --> 01:10:24,150
know do you know anything more about

1421
01:10:30,140 --> 01:10:27,390
that in detail I understand that she

1422
01:10:32,750 --> 01:10:30,150
grew up knowing that she had heard it

1423
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:32,760
from family members hmm and she had she

1424
01:10:38,990 --> 01:10:36,090
has know she is a very very valid

1425
01:10:42,890 --> 01:10:39,000
credible person she would have no reason

1426
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:42,900
to to make up a fabrication now I don't

1427
01:10:47,780 --> 01:10:45,090
know if she was repeating something that

1428
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:47,790
was correct but she would say yes that

1429
01:10:51,020 --> 01:10:49,440
this happened according to what she

1430
01:10:54,170 --> 01:10:51,030
heard mm-hmm

1431
01:10:56,660 --> 01:10:54,180
so I heard you say today that you're one

1432
01:11:01,790 --> 01:10:56,670
of five girls and your family yes

1433
01:11:05,690 --> 01:11:01,800
how was growing up in a family known to

1434
01:11:07,700 --> 01:11:05,700
be interested in UFOs it was very

1435
01:11:09,950 --> 01:11:07,710
interesting I think I had a lot of

1436
01:11:13,970 --> 01:11:09,960
experiences that you know the average

1437
01:11:18,260 --> 01:11:13,980
person did not have so I can remember

1438
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:18,270
very clearly being a child and since I

1439
01:11:24,650 --> 01:11:20,970
was the youngest I was the one who often

1440
01:11:26,570 --> 01:11:24,660
answered the phone so around Saturday

1441
01:11:30,440 --> 01:11:26,580
night we'd all be sitting around and I

1442
01:11:32,090 --> 01:11:30,450
was so I would say 7 8 9 years old the

1443
01:11:37,630 --> 01:11:32,100
phone would ring I would have to pick it

1444
01:11:42,050 --> 01:11:37,640
up and I very clearly remember once I

1445
01:11:44,210 --> 01:11:42,060
said hello and a man said hey man I just

1446
01:11:49,340 --> 01:11:44,220
saw a little green aliens in my back in

1447
01:11:54,440 --> 01:11:49,350
my backyard I'm like I think you want to

1448
01:11:58,240 --> 01:11:54,450
speak to my mother so oftentimes we

1449
01:12:03,710 --> 01:12:01,220
but and then there were other people who

1450
01:12:06,380 --> 01:12:03,720
would call and you know they seemed very

1451
01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:06,390
credible so was your mother known as the

1452
01:12:13,070 --> 01:12:10,710
person to call yes from what region your

1453
01:12:16,910 --> 01:12:13,080
general region and how did people know

1454
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:16,920
to call her so her being part of neuf on

1455
01:12:26,030 --> 01:12:23,100
la ok Kainat mmm she heard her name and

1456
01:12:30,620 --> 01:12:26,040
number was given to people who would

1457
01:12:32,930 --> 01:12:30,630
call the Los Angeles Police Department

1458
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:32,940
or people who would call the Griffith

1459
01:12:35,300 --> 01:12:33,330
Observatory

1460
01:12:37,700 --> 01:12:35,310
taury if they say that they reported

1461
01:12:40,300 --> 01:12:37,710
something in the sky she was often top

1462
01:12:43,190 --> 01:12:40,310
on the list to call but there were other

1463
01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:43,200
field investigators that would be called

1464
01:12:48,350 --> 01:12:44,640
as well but she would often be called

1465
01:12:51,980 --> 01:12:48,360
and this was you know as I remember 60s

1466
01:12:55,460 --> 01:12:51,990
70s 80s and then she was active for as a

1467
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:55,470
field investigator for probably 40 at

1468
01:13:01,850 --> 01:12:57,600
least 40 years what are some of the

1469
01:13:05,450 --> 01:13:01,860
dynamic cases that she worked on I would

1470
01:13:09,790 --> 01:13:05,460
say one of the most dynamic cases that

1471
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:09,800
she worked on was the Rex Heflin photos

1472
01:13:21,890 --> 01:13:17,730
so in August of 1965 a highway

1473
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:21,900
maintenance engineer Rex Heflin saw a

1474
01:13:27,890 --> 01:13:24,960
craft in the sky he had Polaroid on him

1475
01:13:30,440 --> 01:13:27,900
right he did yeah he saw it in Santa Ana

1476
01:13:34,010 --> 01:13:30,450
and he just so happened to have a

1477
01:13:39,970 --> 01:13:34,020
Polaroid camera in his work truck and he

1478
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:39,980
took four pictures which ended up being

1479
01:13:54,170 --> 01:13:51,340
legitimate pictures of a UFO ever seen

1480
01:13:56,330 --> 01:13:54,180
investigators had always made sure that

1481
01:14:00,920 --> 01:13:56,340
they they wanted some kind of proof they

1482
01:14:02,900 --> 01:14:00,930
wanted a picture they wanted you know

1483
01:14:06,110 --> 01:14:02,910
the Close Encounters of the second kind

1484
01:14:10,430 --> 01:14:06,120
thing but a clearer picture was really

1485
01:14:13,490 --> 01:14:10,440
really very important and there weren't

1486
01:14:18,290 --> 01:14:13,500
that many up to that point and Rex

1487
01:14:25,790 --> 01:14:18,300
Heflin actually saw this this was August

1488
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:25,800
3rd 1965 and so the I would say the

1489
01:14:33,650 --> 01:14:30,290
first three photos show a craft and then

1490
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:33,660
the fourth photo shows the remains of

1491
01:14:37,970 --> 01:14:35,370
craft like a smoke or something like a

1492
01:14:40,100 --> 01:14:37,980
smoke ring mm-hmm that Rex Heflin said

1493
01:14:42,189 --> 01:14:40,110
was about four times the size of the

1494
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:42,199
original craft that he had seen

1495
01:14:51,669 --> 01:14:46,010
and what was interesting about this was

1496
01:14:57,430 --> 01:14:51,679
that there were people from the US the

1497
01:15:02,020 --> 01:14:57,440
Marines the US Army the Air Force that

1498
01:15:04,150 --> 01:15:02,030
came by to borrow these pictures and he

1499
01:15:07,209 --> 01:15:04,160
obligingly lent out the pictures to

1500
01:15:10,330 --> 01:15:07,219
anyone who would who showed interest and

1501
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:10,340
it was the first three pictures that he

1502
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:12,650
always lent out because there was very

1503
01:15:22,180 --> 01:15:15,770
little said about the fourth picture but

1504
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:22,190
in September of 65 which just three

1505
01:15:27,580 --> 01:15:25,010
months after this incident a man who

1506
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:27,590
claimed he was from NORAD came to his

1507
01:15:32,709 --> 01:15:29,890
door he borrowed the pictures

1508
01:15:34,990 --> 01:15:32,719
Heflin just expected that they would be

1509
01:15:38,110 --> 01:15:35,000
returned just like all the others had

1510
01:15:42,689 --> 01:15:38,120
been returned but that was the last time

1511
01:15:47,260 --> 01:15:42,699
he saw the first three photos until 1993

1512
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:47,270
and so for almost 40 years researchers

1513
01:15:52,450 --> 01:15:49,610
did not have the original first three

1514
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:52,460
pictures to work with and a lot of them

1515
01:15:59,290 --> 01:15:55,130
were working with you know second third

1516
01:16:04,419 --> 01:15:59,300
and fourth generation copies mmm and it

1517
01:16:07,209 --> 01:16:04,429
was really difficult to make you know a

1518
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:07,219
true research from third fourth

1519
01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:13,280
generation copies sure so and then the

1520
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:15,440
story of their return is interesting so

1521
01:16:21,060 --> 01:16:18,650
Rex Heflin worked as a highway

1522
01:16:28,830 --> 01:16:21,070
maintenance engineer for 30 years and

1523
01:16:31,510 --> 01:16:28,840
then he developed this lead poisoning

1524
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:31,520
unfortunately because he worked with

1525
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:34,850
highways and roadways so much and then

1526
01:16:44,860 --> 01:16:37,250
he moved up to Santa Rosa well one day

1527
01:16:46,270 --> 01:16:44,870
in 1993 there was a telephone call and

1528
01:16:48,399 --> 01:16:46,280
he answered a woman said have you

1529
01:16:52,419 --> 01:16:48,409
checked your mailbox lately

1530
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:52,429
and he said no but he went out and there

1531
01:16:57,660 --> 01:16:54,800
was nothing in his mailbox half an hour

1532
01:17:00,399 --> 01:16:57,670
later the woman called back and said

1533
01:17:02,530 --> 01:17:00,409
have you checked your mailbox lately

1534
01:17:06,490 --> 01:17:02,540
did he ask who it was and did they say

1535
01:17:09,879 --> 01:17:06,500
they were he didn't at least if he did

1536
01:17:12,370 --> 01:17:09,889
it was no story there but he went to his

1537
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:12,380
mailbox and there were the first three

1538
01:17:17,830 --> 01:17:15,050
photos and they were the originals cuz

1539
01:17:21,070 --> 01:17:17,840
it had all of his original markings and

1540
01:17:24,340 --> 01:17:21,080
they were returned they were relatively

1541
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:24,350
unharmed it seems like someone for the

1542
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:26,480
past almost 40 years had taken very good

1543
01:17:30,490 --> 01:17:27,440
care of them

1544
01:17:32,890 --> 01:17:30,500
that is so strange that they would

1545
01:17:35,260 --> 01:17:32,900
bother to return them yes that's right

1546
01:17:37,689 --> 01:17:35,270
oh it's actually almost 30 years excuse

1547
01:17:40,060 --> 01:17:37,699
me yeah that's still very strange so the

1548
01:17:42,490 --> 01:17:40,070
question is why were they returned yeah

1549
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:42,500
I don't know the answer to that yeah I

1550
01:17:46,180 --> 01:17:43,730
mean it just seems like it would be just

1551
01:17:48,820 --> 01:17:46,190
as easy to they were gone so long and

1552
01:17:50,740 --> 01:17:48,830
you know 30 years most people are gonna

1553
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:50,750
forget about him for the most part

1554
01:17:58,840 --> 01:17:53,449
exactly but it was really good because

1555
01:18:00,820 --> 01:17:58,850
in those ensuing years James McDonald an

1556
01:18:04,270 --> 01:18:00,830
atmospheric scientist from the

1557
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:04,280
University of Arizona had declared

1558
01:18:10,629 --> 01:18:07,850
publicly that he did not see that photo

1559
01:18:12,430 --> 01:18:10,639
number four with the smoke ring was

1560
01:18:14,410 --> 01:18:12,440
related to folk to the first three

1561
01:18:16,270 --> 01:18:14,420
photos mm-hmm because in the first three

1562
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:16,280
photos that seemed to show that there

1563
01:18:24,010 --> 01:18:20,330
was like a flat clouding clouds in the

1564
01:18:27,419 --> 01:18:24,020
sky but in the fourth photo there there

1565
01:18:30,580 --> 01:18:27,429
what there were like cumulus clouds and

1566
01:18:34,180 --> 01:18:30,590
James McDonald was an absurd mm-hmm

1567
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:34,190
scientist and so he didn't say Rex

1568
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:37,130
you're lying he just said I can't figure

1569
01:18:42,250 --> 01:18:40,010
this out and unless it was a different

1570
01:18:44,979 --> 01:18:42,260
part of the sky as a possible there will

1571
01:18:48,220 --> 01:18:44,989
be different type of clouds it was it

1572
01:18:51,220 --> 01:18:48,230
was the first the first one was taken

1573
01:18:53,110 --> 01:18:51,230
out through his window right and the

1574
01:18:56,500 --> 01:18:53,120
second and third was taken through the

1575
01:18:59,919 --> 01:18:56,510
passenger window and then the third was

1576
01:19:01,470 --> 01:18:59,929
taken from outside and you know staring

1577
01:19:08,100 --> 01:19:01,480
at a different part of the sky

1578
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:08,110
but in 1993 Rex but you know I want to

1579
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:10,000
have another reanalysis of these photos

1580
01:19:14,940 --> 01:19:12,130
so that's when he reached out to and

1581
01:19:17,610 --> 01:19:14,950
ruffle and Bob wood and another

1582
01:19:20,250 --> 01:19:17,620
researcher from CSUN they did this whole

1583
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:20,260
entire analysis they got a grant for

1584
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:25,330
this they did mathematical calculations

1585
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:28,210
of how how you know fart was the

1586
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:30,730
distance and everything and the photo 3

1587
01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:33,010
was really great because when they

1588
01:19:41,580 --> 01:19:36,640
realized photo 3 they found a smoke

1589
01:19:45,810 --> 01:19:41,590
trail coming out of it as if the object

1590
01:19:51,020 --> 01:19:45,820
was starting to what shed starting to

1591
01:19:54,870 --> 01:19:51,030
have a smoke ring emerge so that those

1592
01:19:57,570 --> 01:19:54,880
those photo 3 and 4 were shown to be

1593
01:20:00,450 --> 01:19:57,580
conclusively linked by that yes and no

1594
01:20:02,250 --> 01:20:00,460
one had that in the 1960s Wow now have

1595
01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:02,260
you physically held these photos in your

1596
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:08,560
hand yes yes and where are they now Rex

1597
01:20:13,890 --> 01:20:12,010
Heflin entrusted my mother with them so

1598
01:20:16,500 --> 01:20:13,900
they're in Pasadena there yes they're in

1599
01:20:19,110 --> 01:20:16,510
Pasadena in a safe my mother bought a

1600
01:20:25,190 --> 01:20:19,120
special safe 15 years ago put them in

1601
01:20:28,110 --> 01:20:25,200
the safe and about two months ago I said

1602
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:28,120
we have those Rex Heflin photos around

1603
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:31,330
here don't we she's like yeah so there

1604
01:20:38,700 --> 01:20:36,130
was the safe we found the key and we

1605
01:20:41,490 --> 01:20:38,710
held them for the first time it was

1606
01:20:44,820 --> 01:20:41,500
quite exciting isn't that something

1607
01:20:48,150 --> 01:20:44,830
now I've talked to a number of UFO

1608
01:20:50,370 --> 01:20:48,160
researchers as far as you know important

1609
01:20:54,060 --> 01:20:50,380
documents for instance you know Travis

1610
01:20:57,060 --> 01:20:54,070
Walton has letters from Betty hill there

1611
01:21:01,530 --> 01:20:57,070
are Blue Book files that were found by a

1612
01:21:04,590 --> 01:21:01,540
gentleman in Ohio that were basically

1613
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:04,600
sold on Craigslist there's a lot of

1614
01:21:09,060 --> 01:21:06,610
documents now I know class Vaughn and

1615
01:21:10,979 --> 01:21:09,070
Sweden they have a great archive they

1616
01:21:12,420 --> 01:21:10,989
have a great way to store things but

1617
01:21:14,910 --> 01:21:12,430
there's I think there's a lot of

1618
01:21:19,290 --> 01:21:14,920
relevant documents papers

1619
01:21:21,750 --> 01:21:19,300
in books that need to be preserved you

1620
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:21,760
know including you know images like this

1621
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:24,730
and other great images but it's exciting

1622
01:21:31,170 --> 01:21:29,410
because let's just say down the road 50

1623
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:31,180
years from now where those photos gonna

1624
01:21:38,490 --> 01:21:34,210
be is there a plan do you know right no

1625
01:21:40,470 --> 01:21:38,500
actually in my talk today I I said we're

1626
01:21:41,700 --> 01:21:40,480
gonna have to find a place for my

1627
01:21:43,740 --> 01:21:41,710
mother's UFO FILES

1628
01:21:45,900 --> 01:21:43,750
and I'm sure that's on her mind as well

1629
01:21:49,710 --> 01:21:45,910
mm-hmm when I was going through her

1630
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:49,720
filing cabinets oh my goodness the it's

1631
01:21:57,510 --> 01:21:52,930
like a treasure trove there the photos

1632
01:22:00,690 --> 01:21:57,520
the original interviews she has tape

1633
01:22:02,580 --> 01:22:00,700
recording lists of witnesses this sounds

1634
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:02,590
like a documentary to me in the making

1635
01:22:08,220 --> 01:22:06,010
right right and I don't know if this is

1636
01:22:09,780 --> 01:22:08,230
a good time to go to James McDonald

1637
01:22:12,690 --> 01:22:09,790
because I could tell you a little yes I

1638
01:22:17,490 --> 01:22:12,700
would like to a man that's always

1639
01:22:21,480 --> 01:22:17,500
fascinated me and you know with a tragic

1640
01:22:25,170 --> 01:22:21,490
ending but someone that was really

1641
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:25,180
bringing a lot of credibility and yes so

1642
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:27,490
I'd like to talk about did you ever did

1643
01:22:31,890 --> 01:22:28,810
you ever meet him did your mother ever

1644
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:31,900
meet James yes my mother met James

1645
01:22:37,830 --> 01:22:35,650
several times so James McDonald an

1646
01:22:39,930 --> 01:22:37,840
atmospheric scientist from the

1647
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:39,940
University of Arizona Tucson

1648
01:22:46,980 --> 01:22:43,170
he was also professor of meteorology and

1649
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:46,990
he did a lot with weather modification

1650
01:22:54,420 --> 01:22:51,130
and cloud physics he was very very well

1651
01:22:56,970 --> 01:22:54,430
known in his field very prolific he had

1652
01:22:59,460 --> 01:22:56,980
the type of mind that I hear from

1653
01:23:01,850 --> 01:22:59,470
several recent researchers that just

1654
01:23:04,140 --> 01:23:01,860
went constantly just one of those people

1655
01:23:05,970 --> 01:23:04,150
searching us in questions searching

1656
01:23:08,970 --> 01:23:05,980
getting answers going to here from here

1657
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:08,980
seems like sometimes when you hear him

1658
01:23:19,069 --> 01:23:15,850
talk I think his mind worked faster than

1659
01:23:23,549 --> 01:23:19,079
his mouth could produce the words

1660
01:23:27,330 --> 01:23:23,559
but very very brilliant man and he

1661
01:23:29,850 --> 01:23:27,340
became very excited by the project of

1662
01:23:32,279 --> 01:23:29,860
UFOs and started researching UFOs in

1663
01:23:34,859 --> 01:23:32,289
Arizona do you happen to know how what

1664
01:23:38,969 --> 01:23:34,869
made him get interested in it because of

1665
01:23:41,669 --> 01:23:38,979
his study of that miss her I wish I knew

1666
01:23:44,489 --> 01:23:41,679
the answer to that I would direct people

1667
01:23:48,299 --> 01:23:44,499
to my mother's book firestorm dr. James

1668
01:23:48,569 --> 01:23:48,309
a McDonald's fight for UFO science here

1669
01:23:50,369 --> 01:23:48,579
we are

1670
01:23:52,919 --> 01:23:50,379
look subbed let's hold that up a little

1671
01:23:57,119 --> 01:23:52,929
bit oh yes a little bit higher so it's

1672
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:57,129
in the camera right there perfect yes

1673
01:24:02,729 --> 01:24:00,159
yeah so and I have heard about this book

1674
01:24:06,209 --> 01:24:02,739
before mm-hmm and I'm sure it has more

1675
01:24:08,699 --> 01:24:06,219
of what really got him interested but I

1676
01:24:12,629 --> 01:24:08,709
think the fact that he could explain a

1677
01:24:14,549 --> 01:24:12,639
lot of things you know the the UFO

1678
01:24:19,020 --> 01:24:14,559
phenomenon was really hitting its peace

1679
01:24:21,449 --> 01:24:19,030
peak in the mid 1950s he worked as an

1680
01:24:24,419 --> 01:24:21,459
atmospheric physicist he could look up

1681
01:24:28,139 --> 01:24:24,429
and he could say this type of cloud this

1682
01:24:32,699 --> 01:24:28,149
what is this in the sky and I'm sure it

1683
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:32,709
was partly scientific curiosity that

1684
01:24:40,529 --> 01:24:37,449
that drew him to this but we were sure

1685
01:24:43,859 --> 01:24:40,539
glad that he did because he studied the

1686
01:24:48,179 --> 01:24:43,869
UFO phenomenon for eight years before he

1687
01:24:51,750 --> 01:24:48,189
came out publicly not to work in the

1688
01:24:55,580 --> 01:24:51,760
public arena with people from NICAP with

1689
01:25:00,770 --> 01:24:55,590
governmental sources he actually

1690
01:25:04,109 --> 01:25:00,780
produced publications and he would go to

1691
01:25:07,350 --> 01:25:04,119
scientific symposiums and he would

1692
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:07,360
present on the UFO problem because to

1693
01:25:13,679 --> 01:25:10,570
him it was a matter of science he

1694
01:25:16,979 --> 01:25:13,689
thought when you take out everything

1695
01:25:19,229 --> 01:25:16,989
when you take out the psychological

1696
01:25:22,339 --> 01:25:19,239
issues when you take out the easily

1697
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:22,349
explained phenomenon when you take out

1698
01:25:27,929 --> 01:25:25,449
the weather phenomenon that was poorly

1699
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:27,939
understood you're left with some very

1700
01:25:32,149 --> 01:25:30,090
very credible cases

1701
01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:32,159
what do you do with those what are these

1702
01:25:40,700 --> 01:25:37,520
things and so here's um here's something

1703
01:25:43,580 --> 01:25:40,710
unidentified flying objects great a

1704
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:43,590
scientific problem of our times by dr.

1705
01:25:54,020 --> 01:25:46,260
James E McDonald this is something he

1706
01:25:58,700 --> 01:25:54,030
produced in 1967 Wow interesting can you

1707
01:26:00,379 --> 01:25:58,710
open the yes sir yes this is an example

1708
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:00,389
of something that he would bring to

1709
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:02,730
looks like that just what I thought it

1710
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:05,489
looked like typed you like letter type

1711
01:26:11,510 --> 01:26:08,730
to pages right and so he published this

1712
01:26:14,629 --> 01:26:11,520
basically yeah and he would bring it to

1713
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:14,639
symposia scientific symposia he would

1714
01:26:21,950 --> 01:26:17,040
bring it to investigators all over the

1715
01:26:25,609 --> 01:26:21,960
country and this is a long way of saying

1716
01:26:29,149 --> 01:26:25,619
yes my mother met James McDonald several

1717
01:26:31,339 --> 01:26:29,159
times whenever he traveled and he came

1718
01:26:35,930 --> 01:26:31,349
to Los Angeles he would be sure to meet

1719
01:26:39,919 --> 01:26:35,940
with the LA NICAP subcommittee lands

1720
01:26:45,589 --> 01:26:39,929
mm-hm and she was fascinated everyone

1721
01:26:48,290 --> 01:26:45,599
who met him was like grateful in a way

1722
01:26:51,649 --> 01:26:48,300
to have such a scientific voice talk

1723
01:26:56,359 --> 01:26:51,659
about this and to bring legitimacy to

1724
01:27:00,890 --> 01:26:56,369
the issue and James McDonald had a great

1725
01:27:04,070 --> 01:27:00,900
deal legitimacy in his own research and

1726
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:04,080
in the UFO field he had great legitimacy

1727
01:27:10,490 --> 01:27:06,650
from investigators

1728
01:27:12,919 --> 01:27:10,500
mm-hmm did he do any personally

1729
01:27:17,870 --> 01:27:12,929
investigating himself as far as you know

1730
01:27:23,780 --> 01:27:17,880
yes he did a great deal of investigating

1731
01:27:26,839 --> 01:27:23,790
so for example in 1967 no 1965 he took a

1732
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:26,849
stab at investigating the Heflin case so

1733
01:27:30,890 --> 01:27:28,290
in nature that's right I did know that

1734
01:27:35,209 --> 01:27:30,900
that's right that's right and I was

1735
01:27:38,990 --> 01:27:35,219
correct in 1967 he went on site to

1736
01:27:40,669 --> 01:27:39,000
investigate the Heflin case and they

1737
01:27:42,020 --> 01:27:40,679
went to the place where Heflin was

1738
01:27:44,620 --> 01:27:42,030
parked

1739
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:44,630
they went to El Toro Marine base and

1740
01:27:55,130 --> 01:27:49,730
then later that evening there was a huge

1741
01:27:58,880 --> 01:27:55,140
30 person meeting of the LA Knight

1742
01:28:01,160 --> 01:27:58,890
nightcap subcommittee talking about the

1743
01:28:04,790 --> 01:28:01,170
Heflin case and McDonald was there

1744
01:28:09,020 --> 01:28:04,800
Heflin was there one of the researchers

1745
01:28:12,470 --> 01:28:09,030
that was working on the project Bluebook

1746
01:28:17,810 --> 01:28:12,480
was there and so he did and I just want

1747
01:28:21,950 --> 01:28:17,820
to tell you what he left after his

1748
01:28:27,020 --> 01:28:21,960
passing he left a treasure trove of UFO

1749
01:28:29,510 --> 01:28:27,030
files so in the 1990s there were several

1750
01:28:35,180 --> 01:28:29,520
people that went to his home in Tucson

1751
01:28:40,270 --> 01:28:35,190
to catalogue all of his UFO files and it

1752
01:28:42,190 --> 01:28:40,280
came to 29 boxes and in this it included

1753
01:28:47,540 --> 01:28:42,200
correspondence with a multitude of

1754
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:47,550
contacts interviews with people who had

1755
01:28:54,500 --> 01:28:51,930
seen UFOs voice recordings materials

1756
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:54,510
connected with numerous seminars such as

1757
01:29:02,210 --> 01:28:57,810
the one that I showed you four

1758
01:29:04,970 --> 01:29:02,220
handwritten journals and when Project

1759
01:29:10,580 --> 01:29:04,980
Blue Book ended with the disappointing

1760
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:10,590
Condon report James was so concerned

1761
01:29:15,380 --> 01:29:12,810
over the fact that some of these things

1762
01:29:19,940 --> 01:29:15,390
would be destroyed that he went to

1763
01:29:23,270 --> 01:29:19,950
Maxwell Air Force Base and he copied 580

1764
01:29:25,490 --> 01:29:23,280
of the radar visual files he was the

1765
01:29:28,430 --> 01:29:25,500
first person actually allowed to do this

1766
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:28,440
he studied them he copied them and then

1767
01:29:34,220 --> 01:29:30,570
he brought him back to his home so this

1768
01:29:37,070 --> 01:29:34,230
is part of what he left and thank

1769
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:37,080
goodness um the University of Arizona

1770
01:29:44,090 --> 01:29:41,010
there is a place where people can access

1771
01:29:46,790 --> 01:29:44,100
the mcdonald UFO files and of course as

1772
01:29:48,430 --> 01:29:46,800
well as his research into weather

1773
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:48,440
modification and

1774
01:29:53,140 --> 01:29:51,410
spirit physics Wow so there's a good

1775
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:53,150
case right there of something that is

1776
01:30:00,490 --> 01:29:56,290
been going to be well kept and safe

1777
01:30:05,770 --> 01:30:00,500
exactly yeah exactly that's great when

1778
01:30:10,090 --> 01:30:05,780
he was doing this research and actually

1779
01:30:14,430 --> 01:30:10,100
sticking his neck out after the Robinson

1780
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:14,440
panel of 1950 to basically debunk and

1781
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:16,610
ridicule and all that

1782
01:30:22,900 --> 01:30:20,810
what type of ridicule do you know that

1783
01:30:26,530 --> 01:30:22,910
he was getting from his colleagues or

1784
01:30:31,150 --> 01:30:26,540
other people right so you know about the

1785
01:30:32,830 --> 01:30:31,160
1968 UFO symposium committees by

1786
01:30:36,700 --> 01:30:32,840
Congress

1787
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:36,710
he appeared oh yes yes two times he was

1788
01:30:43,330 --> 01:30:40,489
asked to give testimony at a

1789
01:30:45,939 --> 01:30:43,340
congressional hearing this 1968 he

1790
01:30:49,630 --> 01:30:45,949
appeared with other scientists such as

1791
01:30:52,170 --> 01:30:49,640
dr. Carl Sagan and J Allen Hynek and

1792
01:30:54,670 --> 01:30:52,180
Friedman was actually there to

1793
01:30:56,650 --> 01:30:54,680
non-scientists I mean he was they I mean

1794
01:30:59,979 --> 01:30:56,660
yes What did he say he was the only non

1795
01:31:03,189 --> 01:30:59,989
PhD there right what he said yeah mm-hmm

1796
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:03,199
and so he gave this um this testimony on

1797
01:31:08,050 --> 01:31:06,170
the symposium on UFOs which actually is

1798
01:31:12,910 --> 01:31:08,060
very forward-thinking first of all for

1799
01:31:18,010 --> 01:31:12,920
Congress to have done this and he gave

1800
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:18,020
testimony and all five well five out of

1801
01:31:25,229 --> 01:31:21,280
the six scientists were in favor of

1802
01:31:29,620 --> 01:31:25,239
grants governmental grants for research

1803
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:29,630
legitimate scientific research hmm

1804
01:31:39,610 --> 01:31:36,770
and he got pushed back on that but also

1805
01:31:43,630 --> 01:31:39,620
on push back on his UFO research in

1806
01:31:46,540 --> 01:31:43,640
particular I don't know if really his

1807
01:31:49,810 --> 01:31:46,550
scientific colleagues really made him

1808
01:31:51,970 --> 01:31:49,820
feel you know humiliated they probably

1809
01:31:56,070 --> 01:31:51,980
just said why are you doing this we just

1810
01:31:59,590 --> 01:31:56,080
don't understand it but he was receiving

1811
01:32:02,630 --> 01:31:59,600
a lot of

1812
01:32:05,959 --> 01:32:02,640
interesting pushback from governmental

1813
01:32:09,250 --> 01:32:05,969
sources which came to a climax in the

1814
01:32:11,750 --> 01:32:09,260
1971 hearings on supersonic transporters

1815
01:32:14,930 --> 01:32:11,760
now let me go back just for a few

1816
01:32:17,890 --> 01:32:14,940
minutes and say that James McDonald had

1817
01:32:21,709 --> 01:32:17,900
had interesting things happen to him

1818
01:32:26,959 --> 01:32:21,719
so for example one time his luggage was

1819
01:32:30,950 --> 01:32:26,969
lost and it seemed like it had either

1820
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:30,960
been taken or replaced or something or

1821
01:32:35,180 --> 01:32:33,690
gone through and it took several days

1822
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:35,190
for it to come back and that was a

1823
01:32:39,290 --> 01:32:37,050
really big thing because they really

1824
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:39,300
felt like someone had gone through his

1825
01:32:49,220 --> 01:32:42,690
luggage he also a couple times reported

1826
01:32:52,820 --> 01:32:49,230
people in black unmarked cars and this I

1827
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:52,830
completely believe because I have a

1828
01:32:59,900 --> 01:32:55,920
friend named Reverend Al Cowan and he

1829
01:33:03,110 --> 01:32:59,910
has a CIA file on himself or probably an

1830
01:33:08,380 --> 01:33:03,120
FBI file just because he was he was

1831
01:33:12,020 --> 01:33:08,390
involved in you know Vietnam or a

1832
01:33:14,660 --> 01:33:12,030
protest a matter of social justice

1833
01:33:16,700 --> 01:33:14,670
issues and rallies and everything like

1834
01:33:18,860 --> 01:33:16,710
that and and the government was very

1835
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:18,870
interested in people like that they

1836
01:33:23,689 --> 01:33:20,730
wanted to see what they were up to and

1837
01:33:27,410 --> 01:33:23,699
see if they were a threat mm-hmm to the

1838
01:33:32,959 --> 01:33:27,420
government so I can really see how James

1839
01:33:36,939 --> 01:33:32,969
McDonald had a lot of scrutiny but it

1840
01:33:41,390 --> 01:33:36,949
was really it was really sad because all

1841
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:41,400
he wanted to do was bring legitimacy

1842
01:33:47,330 --> 01:33:44,370
from the scientific and governmental

1843
01:33:50,150 --> 01:33:47,340
fields to UFO research that's that's

1844
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:50,160
what he was fighting for it doesn't seem

1845
01:33:54,860 --> 01:33:53,010
to be that big of a deal but he was a

1846
01:34:02,570 --> 01:33:54,870
really a prophet because he was doing

1847
01:34:09,380 --> 01:34:02,580
this 50 plus years ago so that he was on

1848
01:34:12,169 --> 01:34:09,390
a panel in 1971 and it was for testimony

1849
01:34:12,770 --> 01:34:12,179
for the proposed building of a fleet of

1850
01:34:16,459 --> 01:34:12,780
super

1851
01:34:19,629 --> 01:34:16,469
sonic transporters now this fleet would

1852
01:34:25,569 --> 01:34:19,639
have been built to replace conventional

1853
01:34:28,089 --> 01:34:25,579
airliners and so they had a panel of

1854
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:28,099
experts scientists experts scientists

1855
01:34:38,990 --> 01:34:32,210
come to Congress and give testimony and

1856
01:34:43,939 --> 01:34:39,000
James was very concerned because he was

1857
01:34:46,910 --> 01:34:43,949
concerned that the SST is flying you

1858
01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:46,920
know so high up in the atmosphere would

1859
01:34:52,220 --> 01:34:49,530
damage the ozone layer and caused

1860
01:34:55,399 --> 01:34:52,230
thousands of additional cases of skin

1861
01:34:57,470 --> 01:34:55,409
cancer each year hmm so he was one of

1862
01:35:00,560 --> 01:34:57,480
the very few scientists to speak out in

1863
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:00,570
the early 1970s about problems in the

1864
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:06,690
ozone layer and his concern for this was

1865
01:35:16,399 --> 01:35:12,690
prophetic because it then took Congress

1866
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:16,409
and the international community 16 more

1867
01:35:22,029 --> 01:35:18,090
years to come up with the Montreal

1868
01:35:25,189 --> 01:35:22,039
product protocol which addressed the

1869
01:35:29,330 --> 01:35:25,199
thinning of the ozone layer mm-hmm and

1870
01:35:31,939 --> 01:35:29,340
by that agreement they reduced things

1871
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:31,949
like you know hydrofluoric carbons and

1872
01:35:37,729 --> 01:35:32,690
things like that

1873
01:35:40,549 --> 01:35:37,739
aerosol aerosol yes and then some of the

1874
01:35:44,649 --> 01:35:40,559
ozone layer actually repaired right but

1875
01:35:48,970 --> 01:35:44,659
he was talking about this in 1971

1876
01:35:51,859 --> 01:35:48,980
unfortunately during this testimony

1877
01:35:55,879 --> 01:35:51,869
especially Silvio o Conte of

1878
01:35:59,060 --> 01:35:55,889
Massachusetts who I checked on Silvio

1879
01:36:02,180 --> 01:35:59,070
Conti Congress member Conte and some

1880
01:36:05,330 --> 01:36:02,190
people would say he pushed back because

1881
01:36:10,729 --> 01:36:05,340
some of the SSTs would have been built

1882
01:36:12,979 --> 01:36:10,739
in his district but Congress member

1883
01:36:15,919 --> 01:36:12,989
Conte seemed to be someone who cared

1884
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:15,929
about the environment but for some

1885
01:36:19,910 --> 01:36:17,489
reason he just started pounding

1886
01:36:21,689 --> 01:36:19,920
MacDonald MacDonald was talking about

1887
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:21,699
SSTs

1888
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:26,050
Conte went back to Mac Donald and he

1889
01:36:34,260 --> 01:36:32,050
said on the other hand I have to ask

1890
01:36:37,020 --> 01:36:34,270
this because he was talking about the SS

1891
01:36:40,020 --> 01:36:37,030
T's because no doubt it will be brought

1892
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:40,030
up in debate I have been told Conte said

1893
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:42,610
to McDonald's that you are an expert on

1894
01:36:47,850 --> 01:36:45,370
unidentified flying objects or flying

1895
01:36:50,030 --> 01:36:47,860
saucers do you think that these flying

1896
01:36:53,010 --> 01:36:50,040
objects are extraterrestrial probes

1897
01:36:56,610 --> 01:36:53,020
vehicles or products or some technology

1898
01:36:59,970 --> 01:36:56,620
other than our own McDonald was was very

1899
01:37:03,360 --> 01:36:59,980
taken aback by this because he was

1900
01:37:06,750 --> 01:37:03,370
trying to say this has nothing to do

1901
01:37:10,610 --> 01:37:06,760
with my testimony right now I'm just

1902
01:37:14,850 --> 01:37:10,620
trying to diminish him yes so basically

1903
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:14,860
it was almost like a targeted attack to

1904
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:17,170
discredit him as a witness mm-hmm

1905
01:37:25,530 --> 01:37:22,719
so that at the end Conte he said a man

1906
01:37:28,350 --> 01:37:25,540
who comes here and tells me that SST

1907
01:37:31,830 --> 01:37:28,360
flying in the stratosphere is going to

1908
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:31,840
cause thousands of skin cancers has to

1909
01:37:39,270 --> 01:37:34,330
back up his theory that there are little

1910
01:37:42,030 --> 01:37:39,280
men flying around the sky hmm now the

1911
01:37:44,669 --> 01:37:42,040
hearing room broke up into laughter and

1912
01:37:47,550 --> 01:37:44,679
this is just was just so inappropriate

1913
01:37:52,260 --> 01:37:47,560
and humiliating and humiliating it was a

1914
01:37:56,189 --> 01:37:52,270
public humiliation to McDonald it was a

1915
01:38:02,189 --> 01:37:56,199
direct attack on his science yeah and he

1916
01:38:05,780 --> 01:38:02,199
felt so misunderstood just a few months

1917
01:38:12,630 --> 01:38:05,790
after that he attempted to end his life

1918
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:12,640
and it's almost like McDonald was such a

1919
01:38:22,830 --> 01:38:17,410
genius and so pure kind of in his

1920
01:38:25,860 --> 01:38:22,840
intentions that the public humiliation

1921
01:38:27,590 --> 01:38:25,870
that he received was something that like

1922
01:38:32,580 --> 01:38:27,600
he almost couldn't deal with

1923
01:38:37,910 --> 01:38:32,590
hmm and I just so wish now that he had

1924
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:37,920
had someone something to fall back on

1925
01:38:43,380 --> 01:38:41,170
support you know something support

1926
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:43,390
mm-hmm

1927
01:38:50,250 --> 01:38:47,290
some people describe him as not being

1928
01:38:51,950 --> 01:38:50,260
able to understand his own worth because

1929
01:38:54,990 --> 01:38:51,960
people would come up to him and say

1930
01:38:56,610 --> 01:38:55,000
you're doing such wonderful work thank

1931
01:38:57,840 --> 01:38:56,620
you you're so brilliant global and

1932
01:38:58,700 --> 01:38:57,850
oftentimes he would just brush them

1933
01:39:02,550 --> 01:38:58,710
aside

1934
01:39:04,500 --> 01:39:02,560
uh-huh you know yep as if he didn't

1935
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:04,510
understand that he was already making a

1936
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:08,650
difference he was already a force I wish

1937
01:39:17,430 --> 01:39:12,610
that he had known that yeah yeah oh I

1938
01:39:21,990 --> 01:39:17,440
hadn't think about the SST hearing if

1939
01:39:23,790 --> 01:39:22,000
people look this up another person that

1940
01:39:26,610 --> 01:39:23,800
was part of the SST hearing the

1941
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:26,620
supersonic transporter was a man named

1942
01:39:38,430 --> 01:39:32,890
Fred singer s Fred singer who was who

1943
01:39:44,340 --> 01:39:38,440
was a scientist who spoke in favor of

1944
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:44,350
building the SST s but I'm working now

1945
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:47,650
on climate change and education of

1946
01:39:53,150 --> 01:39:51,010
climate change and advocacy and I

1947
01:39:58,140 --> 01:39:53,160
actually know the name Fred singer

1948
01:40:03,270 --> 01:39:58,150
because he then in the 1980s and 90s

1949
01:40:04,340 --> 01:40:03,280
defended the tobacco industry sowing

1950
01:40:08,729 --> 01:40:04,350
disinformation

1951
01:40:11,939 --> 01:40:08,739
into the public debate about the dangers

1952
01:40:16,020 --> 01:40:11,949
of smoking and those same techniques

1953
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:16,030
that the tobacco industry used they used

1954
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:18,250
the same techniques almost the same

1955
01:40:25,229 --> 01:40:22,810
talking points to to discredit climate

1956
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:25,239
change and the science of climate change

1957
01:40:34,470 --> 01:40:29,650
and so it's really interesting because I

1958
01:40:37,180 --> 01:40:34,480
knew I I'm convinced that if James

1959
01:40:40,089 --> 01:40:37,190
McDonald had lived

1960
01:40:43,339 --> 01:40:40,099
speaking out about the ozone layer in

1961
01:40:47,689 --> 01:40:43,349
1971 and we had our first Earth Day in

1962
01:40:51,169 --> 01:40:47,699
1970 he would have seen climate change

1963
01:40:55,310 --> 01:40:51,179
coming perhaps even before Jim Jim

1964
01:40:59,180 --> 01:40:55,320
Hansen James Hansen is the scientific

1965
01:41:00,500 --> 01:40:59,190
darling who appeared in 1988 before

1966
01:41:02,629 --> 01:41:00,510
Congress talking about climate change

1967
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:02,639
I'm convinced that Jim McDonald would

1968
01:41:09,950 --> 01:41:06,030
have been talking before so it's just so

1969
01:41:12,799 --> 01:41:09,960
sad that we lost him and I wish that at

1970
01:41:15,830 --> 01:41:12,809
51 years old yeah I just wish he could

1971
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:15,840
have fallen back on his understanding

1972
01:41:20,270 --> 01:41:19,530
that he was a force he was a force to be

1973
01:41:22,069 --> 01:41:20,280
reckoned with

1974
01:41:24,589 --> 01:41:22,079
he would have continued to have been a

1975
01:41:28,220 --> 01:41:24,599
force to be reckoned with I know I've

1976
01:41:30,439 --> 01:41:28,230
talked to longtime researchers like ray

1977
01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:30,449
Stanford who did you know the Socorro

1978
01:41:38,209 --> 01:41:37,530
case and he holds James McDonald in very

1979
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:38,219
high regard

1980
01:41:45,140 --> 01:41:41,610
he's many times he's talked about what a

1981
01:41:50,149 --> 01:41:45,150
wonderful force as you say he was now as

1982
01:41:55,069 --> 01:41:50,159
a tenured professor when he was going

1983
01:41:57,709 --> 01:41:55,079
into UFOs did that was that the ruffle a

1984
01:42:00,589 --> 01:41:57,719
lot of feathers do you know you know I

1985
01:42:02,750 --> 01:42:00,599
actually cannot speak to that yeah I

1986
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:02,760
know that it's more in my mother's book

1987
01:42:07,430 --> 01:42:05,610
firestorm mm-hmm but I'm sure that it

1988
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:07,440
would have ruffled the scientific

1989
01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:10,130
community because most times people say

1990
01:42:16,459 --> 01:42:13,050
but what does science have to do with

1991
01:42:19,089 --> 01:42:16,469
UFOs mm you know what does science have

1992
01:42:22,729 --> 01:42:19,099
to do with this people don't see the

1993
01:42:25,490 --> 01:42:22,739
interconnection between issues which is

1994
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:25,500
something we need to do now as a human

1995
01:42:32,270 --> 01:42:28,770
species is to see the interconnection

1996
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:32,280
but to get more of that back story you'd

1997
01:42:38,950 --> 01:42:35,489
have to go to firestorm but I do

1998
01:42:41,890 --> 01:42:38,960
remember didn't he get his students also

1999
01:42:45,470 --> 01:42:41,900
interested in the topic and working on

2000
01:42:46,670 --> 01:42:45,480
investigating he may have I think I've

2001
01:42:50,180 --> 01:42:46,680
heard that yes

2002
01:42:55,820 --> 01:42:50,190
uh-huh I would so about your mother

2003
01:42:58,370 --> 01:42:55,830
going back to your mother what does she

2004
01:42:58,910 --> 01:42:58,380
talk at all about the UFO field these

2005
01:43:02,210 --> 01:42:58,920
days

2006
01:43:06,770 --> 01:43:02,220
she talks yes she has given

2007
01:43:10,010 --> 01:43:06,780
presentations up to the late 2000s she

2008
01:43:11,870 --> 01:43:10,020
was giving radio interviews up til two

2009
01:43:17,570 --> 01:43:11,880
years ago oh my goodness I wish I had

2010
01:43:20,870 --> 01:43:17,580
known that yes and and she is working on

2011
01:43:24,950 --> 01:43:20,880
her memoirs no excellent yeah and a cool

2012
01:43:28,750 --> 01:43:24,960
thing about that is because I mom you

2013
01:43:32,900 --> 01:43:28,760
need to write a book about the early

2014
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:32,910
years of the UFO phenomenon the field

2015
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:34,650
the investigative field no yeah

2016
01:43:41,690 --> 01:43:37,650
everything and what I realized was when

2017
01:43:43,910 --> 01:43:41,700
I was researching this book I realized

2018
01:43:47,630 --> 01:43:43,920
so much of that is there already

2019
01:43:52,940 --> 01:43:47,640
no no so it's really exciting she she

2020
01:43:56,090 --> 01:43:52,950
had a um she had sole access to

2021
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:56,100
McDonalds files for four years in the

2022
01:44:00,770 --> 01:43:59,040
1990s Wow the journals is what I would

2023
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:00,780
even the most fascinated with yes by the

2024
01:44:05,660 --> 01:44:03,210
way yes that's something I would love to

2025
01:44:07,430 --> 01:44:05,670
look through yes there there at the

2026
01:44:11,930 --> 01:44:07,440
University of Arizona and I hope they

2027
01:44:14,150 --> 01:44:11,940
receive a lot more scrutiny and research

2028
01:44:15,710 --> 01:44:14,160
now especially yeah I'd have once been

2029
01:44:16,040 --> 01:44:15,720
we will be talking about that in a

2030
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:16,050
minute

2031
01:44:24,110 --> 01:44:18,210
and talking with Don Schmidt earlier

2032
01:44:26,330 --> 01:44:24,120
about J Allen Hynek and the files his

2033
01:44:29,270 --> 01:44:26,340
files were right after his death his

2034
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:29,280
files were all rifled through by the

2035
01:44:35,120 --> 01:44:31,650
time was it Robert Powell by the time

2036
01:44:37,340 --> 01:44:35,130
someone got there a short time after his

2037
01:44:39,950 --> 01:44:37,350
death the files were all in disarray and

2038
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:39,960
a lot of them missing so it's

2039
01:44:45,830 --> 01:44:42,090
unfortunate and you know preservation is

2040
01:44:48,380 --> 01:44:45,840
I believe very important for for these

2041
01:44:51,710 --> 01:44:48,390
things now going into this what you just

2042
01:44:54,920 --> 01:44:51,720
mentioned yes you know Tom DeLonge gets

2043
01:44:57,890 --> 01:44:54,930
the two of the stars involved and by the

2044
01:45:00,290 --> 01:44:57,900
way I do have a I have been meaning to

2045
01:45:02,450 --> 01:45:00,300
ask I don't know if you followed a

2046
01:45:05,450 --> 01:45:02,460
that to the Stars Academy and all that

2047
01:45:08,150 --> 01:45:05,460
have you looked into that at all well

2048
01:45:10,130 --> 01:45:08,160
it's part of the group together yes I

2049
01:45:12,530 --> 01:45:10,140
have a longtime listener that keeps

2050
01:45:14,380 --> 01:45:12,540
saying ask them this question he wants a

2051
01:45:17,870 --> 01:45:14,390
fruit he wants this question the answer

2052
01:45:20,480 --> 01:45:17,880
perhaps it's not a question for you but

2053
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:20,490
why is there an entertainment factor to

2054
01:45:25,640 --> 01:45:22,290
to the stars that's his number one

2055
01:45:26,930 --> 01:45:25,650
question but you probably don't know any

2056
01:45:30,050 --> 01:45:26,940
more than I do about that

2057
01:45:33,470 --> 01:45:30,060
mmm but what I do want to know is what

2058
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:36,160
yeah about the New York Times article

2059
01:45:42,380 --> 01:45:37,770
December 16th

2060
01:45:46,730 --> 01:45:42,390
oh she she was so excited she was

2061
01:45:48,650 --> 01:45:46,740
thrilled Wow let's do that and of course

2062
01:45:50,930 --> 01:45:48,660
we're talking about the the governmental

2063
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:50,940
yes Department of Defense yes

2064
01:46:02,390 --> 01:45:55,050
that was revealed yes that is she was so

2065
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:02,400
excited because partly because she felt

2066
01:46:06,890 --> 01:46:04,410
such an affinity for for James

2067
01:46:10,730 --> 01:46:06,900
McDonald's she grieved for him for 20

2068
01:46:14,660 --> 01:46:10,740
years Wow and and the feeling is this is

2069
01:46:19,670 --> 01:46:14,670
what he wanted to happen he wanted to

2070
01:46:21,590 --> 01:46:19,680
have just a scientific office within the

2071
01:46:27,050 --> 01:46:21,600
government taking this seriously

2072
01:46:33,730 --> 01:46:31,670
yes yes yeah and of course the poster

2073
01:46:38,690 --> 01:46:33,740
child of that commander David flavor

2074
01:46:40,700 --> 01:46:38,700
with this 2004 right citing yes that Wow

2075
01:46:43,610 --> 01:46:40,710
when you see that I know when you listen

2076
01:46:46,310 --> 01:46:43,620
to him and he explains you know no rotor

2077
01:46:49,310 --> 01:46:46,320
wash you know going down to 50 feet

2078
01:46:53,630 --> 01:46:49,320
below the water and shooting option yep

2079
01:46:55,460 --> 01:46:53,640
yes and our propulsion yeah yeah a very

2080
01:46:56,960 --> 01:46:55,470
very interesting I've actually reached

2081
01:46:59,000 --> 01:46:56,970
out I've been reaching out to David

2082
01:47:01,160 --> 01:46:59,010
trying to get him on the show but he

2083
01:47:04,730 --> 01:47:01,170
hasn't responded and a lot of people

2084
01:47:06,740 --> 01:47:04,740
have to be if they don't understand like

2085
01:47:08,690 --> 01:47:06,750
they don't understand my show they don't

2086
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:08,700
understand other people smaller shows

2087
01:47:13,410 --> 01:47:11,250
not not the real the real big shows I

2088
01:47:15,229 --> 01:47:13,420
get the fact

2089
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:15,239
that they're trying to be careful

2090
01:47:20,430 --> 01:47:17,770
because they don't want to appear fringe

2091
01:47:22,110 --> 01:47:20,440
in any type of way you know they want to

2092
01:47:24,990 --> 01:47:22,120
be taken seriously and so they're very

2093
01:47:27,150 --> 01:47:25,000
very careful and Leslie Kane who's been

2094
01:47:29,100 --> 01:47:27,160
on my show a number of times she said

2095
01:47:31,350 --> 01:47:29,110
she has to be you know she has to wait

2096
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:31,360
for a while she did go on Alejandro's

2097
01:47:36,450 --> 01:47:35,170
show and open minds and she will be on

2098
01:47:39,240 --> 01:47:36,460
my show eventually and the same thing

2099
01:47:41,820 --> 01:47:39,250
with ralph Blumenthal the other writer

2100
01:47:44,189 --> 01:47:41,830
of that particular article is he said he

2101
01:47:46,530 --> 01:47:44,199
will be on eventually but they have

2102
01:47:48,750 --> 01:47:46,540
plans and what they have plans and you

2103
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:48,760
can tell this to your mother to the New

2104
01:47:53,700 --> 01:47:51,130
York Times is sort of involved in

2105
01:47:55,979 --> 01:47:53,710
orchestrating the way things come out

2106
01:47:58,169 --> 01:47:55,989
now I know the Pentagon is really the

2107
01:48:00,870 --> 01:47:58,179
one orchestrating it but as far as what

2108
01:48:03,180 --> 01:48:00,880
is released to keep the story active and

2109
01:48:05,340 --> 01:48:03,190
alive the New York Times has their hand

2110
01:48:07,700 --> 01:48:05,350
in that I can't really get the

2111
01:48:11,310 --> 01:48:07,710
information out of either Ralph or

2112
01:48:14,370 --> 01:48:11,320
Leslie but there's more to come we don't

2113
01:48:15,959 --> 01:48:14,380
we know there's now I've heard a few

2114
01:48:18,510 --> 01:48:15,969
people say that there's more like 12

2115
01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:18,520
videos I don't really know I loved the

2116
01:48:24,750 --> 01:48:21,250
chance to talk to Lois Allison though

2117
01:48:26,790 --> 01:48:24,760
Alice Ando directly but I know there's

2118
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:26,800
other at least one more video that's

2119
01:48:34,070 --> 01:48:27,850
going to come out it's going to be

2120
01:48:36,930 --> 01:48:34,080
fairly soon and you know if there's one

2121
01:48:39,570 --> 01:48:36,940
you know there are more and you know

2122
01:48:42,750 --> 01:48:39,580
that Pentagon officials governmental

2123
01:48:45,689 --> 01:48:42,760
officials CIA FBI you know that they've

2124
01:48:48,330 --> 01:48:45,699
done a lot of research on this yeah you

2125
01:48:52,910 --> 01:48:48,340
know there's so much more that we don't

2126
01:48:57,930 --> 01:48:52,920
know has happened yeah so if they're I

2127
01:49:02,459 --> 01:48:57,940
just wish that if they could get some of

2128
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:02,469
those old from the 1950s right sightings

2129
01:49:07,350 --> 01:49:05,050
and really redo them as well well

2130
01:49:09,270 --> 01:49:07,360
there's footage you know that's gone to

2131
01:49:12,419 --> 01:49:09,280
the government I mean many people have

2132
01:49:15,780 --> 01:49:12,429
said it including Gordon the astronaut

2133
01:49:20,310 --> 01:49:15,790
I'm losing his last hangar Oh gorgeous

2134
01:49:22,380 --> 01:49:20,320
Oh anyway

2135
01:49:24,090 --> 01:49:22,390
desert sighting this little vehicle came

2136
01:49:25,979 --> 01:49:24,100
down put its feet down and then took off

2137
01:49:27,590 --> 01:49:25,989
and it was filmed you know there's that

2138
01:49:31,310 --> 01:49:27,600
there's

2139
01:49:34,430 --> 01:49:31,320
the Jacob sighting out in California by

2140
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:34,440
Big Sur where the missile was you know

2141
01:49:38,959 --> 01:49:36,810
the dummy warhead had the laser come out

2142
01:49:41,390 --> 01:49:38,969
that video went away all these videos go

2143
01:49:43,220 --> 01:49:41,400
away they're going somewhere and you

2144
01:49:45,260 --> 01:49:43,230
know maybe they're archived maybe

2145
01:49:47,780 --> 01:49:45,270
they're maybe they're gone

2146
01:49:50,979 --> 01:49:47,790
destroyed I don't know there was also

2147
01:49:54,320 --> 01:49:50,989
information from the Jay al

2148
01:49:56,780 --> 01:49:54,330
16:25 flight the Japanese cargo plane

2149
01:49:58,490 --> 01:49:56,790
that had that amazing UFO counter

2150
01:50:00,920 --> 01:49:58,500
I'm sure your mother followed every

2151
01:50:03,860 --> 01:50:00,930
single one of these stories oh yes yeah

2152
01:50:09,500 --> 01:50:03,870
and also thank goodness that dr.

2153
01:50:12,260 --> 01:50:09,510
McDonald photocopied those 580 RV files

2154
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:12,270
from Maxwell Air Force Base and so

2155
01:50:18,550 --> 01:50:14,489
that's a piece of history right there as

2156
01:50:21,020 --> 01:50:18,560
well so it's it's just really exciting I

2157
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:21,030
think it's it is very important that

2158
01:50:28,700 --> 01:50:26,690
people do stay away from fringe

2159
01:50:30,170 --> 01:50:28,710
especially if they're associated with

2160
01:50:34,459 --> 01:50:30,180
the government but these are government

2161
01:50:36,830 --> 01:50:34,469
people now talking out yes no no this is

2162
01:50:38,450 --> 01:50:36,840
ironic because I am in no way saying

2163
01:50:42,950 --> 01:50:38,460
that government officials are more

2164
01:50:45,590 --> 01:50:42,960
credible because we know that some of

2165
01:50:49,430 --> 01:50:45,600
them definitely are not because their

2166
01:50:50,720 --> 01:50:49,440
whole thing is spin right um but have

2167
01:50:52,580 --> 01:50:50,730
these things come out from the

2168
01:50:55,729 --> 01:50:52,590
Department of Defense is truly exciting

2169
01:50:58,910 --> 01:50:55,739
it is yes and people that have been at

2170
01:51:01,130 --> 01:50:58,920
it a long time have said the same thing

2171
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:01,140
your mother has more or less like wow

2172
01:51:04,610 --> 01:51:03,330
this is really really something Stan

2173
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:04,620
Freeman when he was on my show right

2174
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:06,570
afterwards said he wish he was 20 years

2175
01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:09,810
younger you know and it's exciting times

2176
01:51:13,930 --> 01:51:11,850
and and who knows where this is gonna

2177
01:51:16,189 --> 01:51:13,940
lead it's gonna be interesting to hear

2178
01:51:18,890 --> 01:51:16,199
Stephen basses talk

2179
01:51:22,729 --> 01:51:18,900
Saturday tomorrow to hear what he has to

2180
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:22,739
say he was on my panel the other night

2181
01:51:26,150 --> 01:51:24,930
for a little while but it's just you

2182
01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:26,160
know I don't know if he'll know any more

2183
01:51:29,510 --> 01:51:28,050
information than anyone else but it's

2184
01:51:31,220 --> 01:51:29,520
always good to hear that what I love

2185
01:51:33,500 --> 01:51:31,230
about doing this show is to hear the

2186
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:33,510
different takes that people have you

2187
01:51:36,770 --> 01:51:34,410
know because there's a lot of really

2188
01:51:38,660 --> 01:51:36,780
intelligent people such as yourself and

2189
01:51:39,890 --> 01:51:38,670
I'm sure your mother that are involved

2190
01:51:42,500 --> 01:51:39,900
in this that

2191
01:51:45,110 --> 01:51:42,510
are curious and that that is the only

2192
01:51:46,399 --> 01:51:45,120
thing we really can't be is curious and

2193
01:51:49,310 --> 01:51:46,409
like your mother said she wanted to see

2194
01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:49,320
either a body or a craft you know and I

2195
01:51:57,380 --> 01:51:54,449
I get that but have you had the talk

2196
01:51:59,780 --> 01:51:57,390
with her saying well if you had to guess

2197
01:52:02,300 --> 01:51:59,790
what would you think they are have you

2198
01:52:06,229 --> 01:52:02,310
had that sure and she's written about

2199
01:52:09,950 --> 01:52:06,239
that in in several different places she

2200
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:09,960
would say that the crafts that people

2201
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:13,050
report the ones that cannot be explained

2202
01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:16,050
are just true mysteries that she that's

2203
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:18,330
where we go she would say they are true

2204
01:52:28,459 --> 01:52:22,050
mysteries possibly of extraterrestrial

2205
01:52:32,270 --> 01:52:28,469
origin mm-hmm for the entity is that

2206
01:52:37,010 --> 01:52:32,280
people see often or like nighttime

2207
01:52:38,450 --> 01:52:37,020
visitors that that people experience she

2208
01:52:41,270 --> 01:52:38,460
wrote a book called how to defend

2209
01:52:44,689 --> 01:52:41,280
yourself against alien abduction because

2210
01:52:47,990 --> 01:52:44,699
yes because there were so many people

2211
01:52:52,130 --> 01:52:48,000
coming to her saying that they had

2212
01:52:54,320 --> 01:52:52,140
experienced harassing entities or

2213
01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:54,330
abductions things like that so she has a

2214
01:52:58,340 --> 01:52:56,370
lot of files and a lot of articles on

2215
01:53:03,320 --> 01:52:58,350
those things how early on would you say

2216
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:03,330
that was well she would say that after

2217
01:53:14,419 --> 01:53:09,210
McDonald died in 1971 in the 1970s these

2218
01:53:17,899 --> 01:53:14,429
odd abductee really rose I just know I

2219
01:53:20,360 --> 01:53:17,909
said I died I was thinking that was more

2220
01:53:24,050 --> 01:53:20,370
like in the 80s and 90s where it started

2221
01:53:26,149 --> 01:53:24,060
growing and now it's it's there's so

2222
01:53:27,800 --> 01:53:26,159
many people saying that something's

2223
01:53:30,890 --> 01:53:27,810
happening and I know some of it can be

2224
01:53:33,770 --> 01:53:30,900
explained away and then I've been on the

2225
01:53:36,550 --> 01:53:33,780
fence about that a lot of you know my

2226
01:53:39,080 --> 01:53:36,560
journey through all this but then

2227
01:53:43,310 --> 01:53:39,090
there's two things that come to mind one

2228
01:53:45,500 --> 01:53:43,320
is if we are possibly being visited from

2229
01:53:47,930 --> 01:53:45,510
extraterrestrial craft probe where the

2230
01:53:50,930 --> 01:53:47,940
probes or you know whether they're

2231
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:50,940
occupied or not if we were going

2232
01:53:53,660 --> 01:53:52,530
somewhere we'd want to see the samples

2233
01:53:56,630 --> 01:53:53,670
of the life in there

2234
01:53:59,510 --> 01:53:56,640
you know so that there's that that makes

2235
01:54:01,340 --> 01:53:59,520
me wonder they wouldn't just fly and fly

2236
01:54:04,100 --> 01:54:01,350
over us and go away you know I mean

2237
01:54:06,260 --> 01:54:04,110
maybe they are interested in us if

2238
01:54:06,740 --> 01:54:06,270
they're extraterrestrial or whatever

2239
01:54:09,350 --> 01:54:06,750
they are

2240
01:54:11,510 --> 01:54:09,360
from somewhere else and then the other

2241
01:54:14,990 --> 01:54:11,520
thing is there's some very credible

2242
01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:15,000
cases like I think Travis Walton 100%

2243
01:54:21,470 --> 01:54:18,210
credible case the allagash case Betty

2244
01:54:23,750 --> 01:54:21,480
and Barney Hill these are all cases that

2245
01:54:25,189 --> 01:54:23,760
I think you know hold a lot of water and

2246
01:54:27,890 --> 01:54:25,199
I think they're they're pretty solid

2247
01:54:29,959 --> 01:54:27,900
cases why should that be the only ones

2248
01:54:31,010 --> 01:54:29,969
there are but the thing that I don't get

2249
01:54:32,689 --> 01:54:31,020
and I don't know if your mother has ever

2250
01:54:35,900 --> 01:54:32,699
thought about this or talked about it is

2251
01:54:38,090 --> 01:54:35,910
why do they keep abducting if they're

2252
01:54:39,500 --> 01:54:38,100
doing it why do they keep abducting the

2253
01:54:43,370 --> 01:54:39,510
people over and over and over and over

2254
01:54:47,390 --> 01:54:43,380
you know some people say for hybrid

2255
01:54:49,189 --> 01:54:47,400
reasons or or all that did she did she

2256
01:54:51,220 --> 01:54:49,199
fall try to follow up in any of those

2257
01:54:54,709 --> 01:54:51,230
people that came to her when it came to

2258
01:54:57,320 --> 01:54:54,719
yeah so um her first book which was

2259
01:55:00,500 --> 01:54:57,330
written with D Scott Rogo is called the

2260
01:55:04,220 --> 01:55:00,510
Tonga Canyon contacts and it's centers

2261
01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:04,230
around a series of sightings by some a

2262
01:55:08,180 --> 01:55:06,090
group of women in the Tonga Canyon I

2263
01:55:10,070 --> 01:55:08,190
think I know about this case it's not

2264
01:55:16,610 --> 01:55:10,080
the one where they cook them meals and

2265
01:55:19,040 --> 01:55:16,620
stuff yeah but but evidently they they

2266
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:19,050
took them they took them aboard they

2267
01:55:26,120 --> 01:55:22,290
gave them information and my mother said

2268
01:55:28,459 --> 01:55:26,130
these are very credible witnesses they

2269
01:55:31,610 --> 01:55:28,469
went through hypnotic regression there's

2270
01:55:35,090 --> 01:55:31,620
no reason for them to make this up

2271
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:35,100
there's there's no psychological recent

2272
01:55:41,300 --> 01:55:37,650
why they're doing this what to get

2273
01:55:46,550 --> 01:55:41,310
attention or something no and so she

2274
01:55:48,979 --> 01:55:46,560
would say that these would be credible

2275
01:55:49,340 --> 01:55:48,989
she would still want to see evidence of

2276
01:55:53,870 --> 01:55:49,350
it

2277
01:55:56,959 --> 01:55:53,880
yeah for some of the experiences that

2278
01:55:58,520 --> 01:55:56,969
people have with like harassing like

2279
01:55:59,720 --> 01:55:58,530
where they keep coming like in the

2280
01:56:04,400 --> 01:55:59,730
middle of the night and they bother

2281
01:56:06,750 --> 01:56:04,410
people my mom would say she thinks that

2282
01:56:10,619 --> 01:56:06,760
they have less to do with the UFO

2283
01:56:13,439 --> 01:56:10,629
with the Flying Saucer itself and more

2284
01:56:15,209 --> 01:56:13,449
to do with possibly an experience

2285
01:56:16,589 --> 01:56:15,219
between dimensions like their

2286
01:56:19,489 --> 01:56:16,599
interdimensional beings

2287
01:56:23,790 --> 01:56:19,499
hmm they're crossing some kind of

2288
01:56:25,409 --> 01:56:23,800
dimension to visit these people so

2289
01:56:27,589 --> 01:56:25,419
that's what she would say about that but

2290
01:56:32,310 --> 01:56:27,599
they have less to do with you know

2291
01:56:34,589 --> 01:56:32,320
flying saucer occupants but that it's

2292
01:56:39,149 --> 01:56:34,599
very difficult to study them

2293
01:56:45,109 --> 01:56:39,159
scientifically um it's very difficult

2294
01:56:48,659 --> 01:56:45,119
you know to find physical proof or to

2295
01:56:51,569 --> 01:56:48,669
sense since the people seem to be in an

2296
01:56:53,069 --> 01:56:51,579
altered state of consciousness she

2297
01:56:55,529 --> 01:56:53,079
thinks they're having some kind of

2298
01:56:58,020 --> 01:56:55,539
interdimensional experience interesting

2299
01:56:59,279 --> 01:56:58,030
yes going back real quickly and we're

2300
01:57:02,219 --> 01:56:59,289
just about ready to wrap it up here

2301
01:57:03,029 --> 01:57:02,229
going back to what you said a few

2302
01:57:05,549 --> 01:57:03,039
minutes ago

2303
01:57:07,830 --> 01:57:05,559
as far as would it be great if we could

2304
01:57:11,629 --> 01:57:07,840
know more about earlier sightings

2305
01:57:14,549 --> 01:57:11,639
I did I did pose that question to

2306
01:57:17,069 --> 01:57:14,559
Alejandro which has he's been talking to

2307
01:57:20,429 --> 01:57:17,079
Lois Elizondo a lot he's saying they

2308
01:57:22,409 --> 01:57:20,439
only wanted to do contemporary cases as

2309
01:57:24,719 --> 01:57:22,419
far as this goes but one of the things

2310
01:57:28,199 --> 01:57:24,729
and I've mentioned this before so pardon

2311
01:57:30,179 --> 01:57:28,209
the usual listener for my redundancy but

2312
01:57:33,209 --> 01:57:30,189
one of the things that keeps coming up

2313
01:57:35,339 --> 01:57:33,219
and all these hundreds of you know news

2314
01:57:37,979 --> 01:57:35,349
programs is what if this is you know

2315
01:57:41,069 --> 01:57:37,989
technology unknown that one of us one of

2316
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:41,079
our countries has that crumbles apart

2317
01:57:45,479 --> 01:57:43,090
when you go back in time and the things

2318
01:57:48,209 --> 01:57:45,489
we're doing exactly the same thing forty

2319
01:57:50,549 --> 01:57:48,219
years ago you know even ten years ago

2320
01:57:52,589 --> 01:57:50,559
whatever twenty years ago so that's kind

2321
01:57:55,709 --> 01:57:52,599
of where that sits and I don't think a

2322
01:57:57,509 --> 01:57:55,719
lot of people I hear that like argument

2323
01:57:59,489 --> 01:57:57,519
come up and then it's dropped and then

2324
01:58:01,739 --> 01:57:59,499
you don't hear any you know no rebuttal

2325
01:58:05,100 --> 01:58:01,749
against it and if I was ever here dude

2326
01:58:06,979 --> 01:58:05,110
I'd say what about the past cases you

2327
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:06,989
know which is so true there's so many

2328
01:58:12,299 --> 01:58:10,090
radar cases where they've seen very

2329
01:58:13,410 --> 01:58:12,309
similar things to the Nimitz case happen

2330
01:58:17,160 --> 01:58:13,420
you know in the past

2331
01:58:18,890 --> 01:58:17,170
could it be the same craft where the

2332
01:58:21,419 --> 01:58:18,900
same entities are the same thing

2333
01:58:25,260 --> 01:58:21,429
happening 60 years apart

2334
01:58:28,110 --> 01:58:25,270
does anyone made a study of things that

2335
01:58:31,500 --> 01:58:28,120
were strikingly similar I mean a 57

2336
01:58:36,689 --> 01:58:31,510
sighting at a 20-17 sighting yeah you

2337
01:58:38,430 --> 01:58:36,699
know tic tacs right well thanks so much

2338
01:58:43,650 --> 01:58:38,440
the book one more time is called

2339
01:58:45,990 --> 01:58:43,660
firestorm right and and James McDonough

2340
01:58:47,520 --> 01:58:46,000
I'm so glad I finally had someone to

2341
01:58:50,459 --> 01:58:47,530
talk to about James McDonald because

2342
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:50,469
I've wanted to talk about that for quite

2343
01:58:56,550 --> 01:58:52,690
a while and people can order this on and

2344
01:58:58,650 --> 01:58:56,560
ruffle calm and ruffle calm yes all

2345
01:59:00,270 --> 01:58:58,660
right well thanks so much it's been a

2346
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:00,280
real pleasure they really enjoyed

2347
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:01,210
meeting you as well

2348
01:59:07,380 --> 01:59:04,330
you too thank you okay well I hope you

2349
01:59:10,860 --> 01:59:07,390
enjoyed this show as much as I enjoyed

2350
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:10,870
creating it it was both these guests

2351
01:59:17,820 --> 01:59:12,730
were just wonderful I had such a fun

2352
01:59:20,700 --> 01:59:17,830
time talking to them both so that's it

2353
01:59:23,310 --> 01:59:20,710
for the show thanks so much for checking

2354
01:59:26,720 --> 01:59:23,320
it out and we'll be back next week with

2355
01:59:29,850 --> 01:59:26,730
Roberto pinata we'll be talking about

2356
01:59:31,290 --> 01:59:29,860
UFOs over Italy he's gonna be up in the

2357
01:59:33,810 --> 01:59:31,300
middle of the night talking to us here

2358
01:59:36,840 --> 01:59:33,820
live and you remember you can check out

2359
01:59:39,810 --> 01:59:36,850
the website podcast UFO calm there are

2360
01:59:42,240 --> 01:59:39,820
some blogs there's a forum and also I

2361
01:59:45,750 --> 01:59:42,250
always forget to say this we have a

2362
01:59:47,669 --> 01:59:45,760
place where you can anonymously post UFO

2363
01:59:49,979 --> 01:59:47,679
sightings and there's a bunch of them on

2364
01:59:54,390 --> 01:59:49,989
there already really good reading so go

2365
01:59:55,830 --> 01:59:54,400
to podcast UFO comm for that so that's

2366
01:59:58,410 --> 01:59:55,840
it I want to thank everyone that helps

2367
02:00:01,290 --> 01:59:58,420
out with the show Evan the producer or

2368
02:00:04,080 --> 02:00:01,300
Peggy shunning for helping out with the

2369
02:00:05,900 --> 02:00:04,090
Facebook page our two guests thanks so

2370
02:00:09,570 --> 02:00:05,910
much and thank you the listener and